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  1. #3166

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotech Master View Post
    Shinigami don't have Hierro though. They project/emanate Reiatsu from their bodies to counter that of their opponent to achieve their endurance. Soi Fon wanted Omaeda to cut off her arm, so she would not be defending against it.

    For Hierro, there does seem to be a level of durability associated with some that requires a certain level of power to crack it, and piercing/slashing doesn't necessarily seem like it will achieve so much more than impacts or blasts. It's all force one way or the other.
    Also, Soifon's arm was aged to the point of shattering even before Barragan's Respira started turning it into just bone, IIRC.
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  2. #3167
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotech Master View Post
    Shinigami don't have Hierro though. They project/emanate Reiatsu from their bodies to counter that of their opponent to achieve their endurance. Soi Fon wanted Omaeda to cut off her arm, so she would not be defending against it.

    For Hierro, there does seem to be a level of durability associated with some that requires a certain level of power to crack it, and piercing/slashing doesn't necessarily seem like it will achieve so much more than impacts or blasts. It's all force one way or the other.
    I'd still say a lot of it has to do with hiw tough the skin underneath is. Ichigo slice through Yammi's hierro like it was nothin before he could hollowfy. Ishida destroyed the hierro of the Espada Mayuri ended up killing. And if hierro provided that much protection in general a numerous would be as difficult to kill as an espada, seeing as how they all wear them.

    If you look carefully though Rukia did not touch her espada's hierro when she killed him, since she stabbed him in the head.

    And Mayuri, between his release and his resurection through Nemu, no longer had a hierro over his chest as well when he was killed.

  3. #3168
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    Gin managed to point his sword toward Hitsugaya numerous times during the fight. In Bankai, that'd mean that Hitsugaya would be dead.

    As is, Hitsugaya was having trouble dodging Gin's shikai, which is so much slower that it's not even funny.

    The entire point of Gin's actions in that arc was to act as a red herring to stop people from suspecting Aizen. Not to kill people, but to make it look like he was the traitor.

    If he'd wanted to kill Momo with that hit, he could just called Bankai while executing it.

    What crowd is that?
    The pointing of his sword all those times was only in the anime, not the manga. Since we do not know whether Toshiro knew of his bankai's ability, and since Gin was lying about it's speed from the start, how does his pointing his sword at Htsugaya prove anything? And Ichigo could block Ichimaru's bankai, so it is not impossible. And how do you know Hitsugaya's bankai wings couldn't protect him from Gin's bankai? As Ichigo said, a bankai can stop a bankai.


    As for his "trouble" dodging the shikai, as I said, he was caught completely by sursprise at point blank range. That he dodged at all means he could always dodge that shikai. And there is again, not doubt that Gin meant to kill Hinamori with that attack. Could he predict that Matsumoto would make a last second appearence? Only if he's psychic. After that he'd have to kill Hitsugaya for sure or have the rest of the captains going after him for two murders. And saying that Gin would only have meant to kill if he released his bankai does not make any sense. Hitsugaya definately meant to kill and he had yet to consider using bankai. Many other captains fight to kill without bankai all the time, even if their bankai's are 1-hit kills. Why is Gin any different?

    Now that I think about it Aizen was not happy about being the one who had to kill Hinamori in the end. He had wanted someone else to do it.

    As for the anti-Hitsugaya crowd, check out any Youtube video of him fighting. You'll hear a lot of 'Hitsugaya sucks' 'he's the weakest captain' 'he only wins because of his fangirls' and variations on those themes.

  4. #3169
    Cruel and Unusual Sound Silence's Avatar
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    Even thought Gin lied about the speed, it's still ridiculously fast.

  5. #3170
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sound Silence View Post
    Even thought Gin lied about the speed, it's still ridiculously fast.
    True, and again, Ichigo was able to block it without using his hollow powers.

    Don't get me wrong. I agree that in terms of just power Gin is stronger than Hitsugaya and most other captains. The only captain I think would beat him in a fair fight is Kyoraku. But Gin's major strengths lie in his tendency to sneak attack, which is how he got Hyori, and his ability to get under anyone's skin and sap their fighting spirit. He did it to Rukia just before her execution, he did it to Ichigo. Doing it to Hitsugaya doesn't sap his fighting spirit though. It makes him angry and thereby careless, which is a seperate advantage. Gin doesn't do fair fights.
    Last edited by sunofdarkchild; 04-15-2012 at 02:08 AM.

  6. #3171
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    "It has been stated that the only reason the captain's swords aren't the size of skyscrapers is because of the control of the captains."
    I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.
    The part where they can swing them. 'sides Isshin said that. Who is really not the guy you want to talk to in regards to 'average captain power'.

    Oh, and I meant to mention before, OMAEDA of all people was able to cut off Soi Fon's arm without his shikai. That is a lame lieutenant who could still kill his captain without releasing his Zanpakto if he stabbed her.
    And? I mean really, even regular Arrancar showed they can tank sword slashes from Shinigami.

  7. #3172
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    The part where they can swing them. 'sides Isshin said that. Who is really not the guy you want to talk to in regards to 'average captain power'.
    We really have no clue how powerful Isshin is. He's not a match for Aizen, and the only other foe he fought was probably lieutenant level. Certainly not much above.

    If Renji can swing his bankai around why can't a captain do that with an even bigger weapon? We see that shinigami have an absurd amoint of physical strength back during Ichigo's fight with Madarame. The destruction seen in the SS arc is very impressive.



    And? I mean really, even regular Arrancar showed they can tank sword slashes from Shinigami.[/QUOTE]

    Define tank at this point. I've been under the assumption you meant just take the hit. Now it seems you mean block without a sword. There was an arrancar whose released form was armored skin that could withstand Madarame's slashes for a while, though not forever. That was his special ability.

    No one has been shown able to do that while off guard. Not even Kenpachi. Espada 8 was beyond reaction, and Espada 9 had no way of expecting Rukia's sword to reform inside his head after he had killed her.

    I think that might be one of the biggest @&*pull victories by a good guy in Bleach.

  8. #3173
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    We really have no clue how powerful Isshin is. He's not a match for Aizen, and the only other foe he fought was probably lieutenant level. Certainly not much above.
    ???

    And now you just lost all credibility.

  9. #3174
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
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    Ooh. Ranking captains in terms of power. Fun.

    I'll do it in a combination of what we've seen and what the narrative has told us.

    1. Yamamoto
    2. Aizen
    3. Shunsui
    4. Unohana & Juushiro
    5. Gin
    6. Byakuya & Tousen
    7. Soifon
    8. Kenpachi
    9. Toshiro
    10. Komamura
    11. Mayuri

  10. #3175
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Define tank at this point. I've been under the assumption you meant just take the hit. Now it seems you mean block without a sword. There was an arrancar whose released form was armored skin that could withstand Madarame's slashes for a while, though not forever. That was his special ability.
    Well, Omaeda's arrancar opponent just kind of stood in place without flinching in the slightest while Omaeda hit him over and over with his zanpakuto. And as you have noted, Omaeda was able to cut off Soifon's arm.

    I always read hierro that arrancar just have naturally tough skin. And abilitiy that most shinigami need to focus their reaiatsu to mimic.

  11. #3176
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Ooh. Ranking captains in terms of power. Fun.

    I'll do it in a combination of what we've seen and what the narrative has told us.

    1. Yamamoto
    2. Aizen
    3. Shunsui
    4. Unohana & Juushiro
    5. Gin
    6. Byakuya & Tousen
    7. Soifon
    8. Kenpachi
    9. Toshiro
    10. Komamura
    11. Mayuri
    I'd put Toshiro above Kenpachi. The latter has sheer durability and force, but Toshiro's bankai more than makes up for that.

    So long as that's Hollow Tousen, I don't really have other big issues with the list.

  12. #3177
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    I'd put Toshiro above Kenpachi. The latter has sheer durability and force, but Toshiro's bankai more than makes up for that.
    I'd like to see Toshiro actually take down something with Kenpachi's level of strength and durability first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    So long as that's Hollow Tousen, I don't really have other big issues with the list.
    It's Hollow Tousen.

  13. #3178
    The Could-Have-Been King Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    I said that Ishida used deus ex machina.
    Yes? Which is exactly why Ishida beating Mayuri doesn't really make Mayuri the weakest captain.

    That was pretty much my entire point.

    And I'd imagine that any captain with a good defense or decent speed would at least be able to hold off Ishida without serious injury in that event. Senbonzakua would almost certainly stop it.
    Honestly, I'm not so sure. Ishida's arrows at that point appeared to be approaching Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshos in terms of firepower (you know, the ones that kinda blew straight through Senbonzakura) and his hirenkyaku went up to the point where Mayuri couldn't avoid him at all. And the arrows were faster as well. And Ishida can fire entire volleys of arrows at once.

    I'm not saying Byakuya couldn't win, but he would definitely have serious trouble.
    Last edited by Ghost; 04-15-2012 at 06:55 AM.
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  14. #3179
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    ???

    And now you just lost all credibility.
    Nope. Just being realistic. He doesn't do much fighting at all. He beats the Grand Fisher, a failed arrancar, in one swing. There's no reason to think that lieutenants who can one hit ko fraccion couldn't duplicate that feat. You can't judge how Ichigo compares to Kyoraku by his bare handed defeats of the three lieutenants, and that fight is no different. The next fight he's in is against Aizen, where however powerful he was did not matter. Oh, we can and should assume he's a beast, like we do with Unohana, but that's all. There isn't even a chart like there is for Unohana that says she's better than Kyoraku.

    Now he'd have to lose to someone like Chad for me to assume he's at as low a level as Mayuri, but with how little we've seen I wouldn't consider it much of a plot hole if he did. I made an assumption about the Visoreds level of power, that they were even stronger than most of the captains, that proved to not be the case once they fought. Only Shinji proved to be at even the same level.

    There are many assumptions we make about people we rarely see in a fight that can serve as a proper gauge.

    For those tuning in this was originally a discussion about whether Wonderweiss was as strong as an espada. I said no, because if he was that strong he'd have been made an espada and forced Yammi or the 9th espada into becoming a privaron espada. Havok says yes, because he survived punches from Yammamoto.

  15. #3180
    The Could-Have-Been King Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Nope. Just being realistic. He doesn't do much fighting at all. He beats the Grand Fisher, a failed arrancar, in one swing. There's no reason to think that lieutenants who can one hit ko fraccion couldn't duplicate that feat. You can't judge how Ichigo compares to Kyoraku by his bare handed defeats of the three lieutenants, and that fight is no different. The next fight he's in is against Aizen, where however powerful he was did not matter. Oh, we can and should assume he's a beast, like we do with Unohana, but that's all. There isn't even a chart like there is for Unohana that says she's better than Kyoraku.
    ...



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