Bleach Manga/Anime Discussion Thread II

[Pong]

I'm sorry, I just can't get excited at this new arc. The bad guys just ooze lameness this time. And Kubo's desperate attempts at making them credible fall flat on face.


Say what you will about Team Aizen, they were cool. They had charisma. This guys are just tryhards.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Szayel was still a member of the Espada; one of Aizen's personal liutenants. He was basically a boss character, albeit not a very important one.

This creep strikes me more as a high-level henchman. I may be wrong, but that's the vibes I get from him.

He and Nnoitora were somewhat important, at least to Nel's backstory.

Just like how Aaroniero was important to Rukia's character arc, though basically just a speedbump in the overall say of things.

This guy does seem more like that guy who allegedly wiped out the exhausted Privaron Espada, though.

[Dark Soul # 7]

I'm sorry, I just can't get excited at this new arc. The bad guys just ooze lameness this time. And Kubo's desperate attempts at making them credible fall flat on face.

I'm rather getting into this arc. Soul Society is getting ready for a war with all 13 captain positions filled and a pissed-off Yamamoto. At the same time Ichigo and co are going to help their former enemies together with Nel which has so far led to some good character interaction. It's moving at a fairly fast pace, for Bleach that is, and while I haven't formed any opinion about the super-quincies, mainly because we've barely seen anything of them, I get the feeling that I'm going to look forward to Ichigo kick their asses.

Say what you will about Team Aizen, they were cool. They had charisma. This guys are just tryhards.

Again. We've barely seen anything of them yet. I think that it's a bit early to make any kind of conclusion about them. We don't even know if Buckbeard is captain manlybeards real name. So far they mostly seem interested in the annihilation of everything and they're straight to the point. That alone makes them largely different from Aizen and Ginjo

[Ghost]

Yeah, I'm with DS on this. Quite a lot of stuff is actually happening in this arc, we're getting to see old characters again, and it's still too early to make any really solid calls on the bad guys. Over-all, I see no reason to complain.

[The Transient Guest]

....So people are still calling him Captain Manlybeard instead of, as the respected Ghost says:

I correct myself: King Manlybeard.

And is it just me or does the away team captain Quincy seem to be using stick based and not bow based attacks?

[sunofdarkchild]

Here's something that's been bugging me for a while.

I see a lot of people, who oddly enough all seem to hate the character in question, insist over and over again that Hitsugaya is the weakest of the captains. The problem is that I can't see the evidence for it.

The guy lost a total of two fights, each to Aizen of all people and both times he was using his complete hypnosis ability. Other than that every fight he was in was a victory for him, a draw, or ended before it could decicively be said to go either way. In the manga those fights tend to go better for him than they do in the anime, specifically his fights with Gin and Harribel. If you factor in noncanon material the last filler arc does not make him look so good, but the previous arcs and two movies have him easily above shikai Ichigo even with hyorinmaru unreleased.

He definately falls under the Worf Effect, first with Aizen, then with the first Arrancars, and finally with Luppi for a second, but with the Arrancars he had an 80% handicap and other than with Aizen he ultimately won the other fights or was on top when they ended. That the same happens to Kenpachi much of the time (especially in the movies) doesn't make people think him weak.

Then there's Stark asking how Kyoraku's bankai compared to Hitsugaya's, completely ignoring Soi Fon's and very strongly implying that Hitsugay's is the stronger of the two.

So what are the arguements that Hitsugaya is weaker than the blatantly weak captains like Komamura? Is it just a reaction to his being the most popular character?

[Siriel]

We consider him one of the weaker Captains, not the weakest. Honestly, Komamura is a running joke for how useless he is and an unprepared Mayuri isn't all that threatening.

Hitsugaya's fight with Gin showed pretty conclusively that Gin was the strongest of the two. (The fact that Gin's Bankai is completely ridiculous doesn't help.)

I mean, being one of the weaker Captains just mean that he's around Byakuya's level, not that he's Chad.

[Hazard]

If I had to rank the captains, it would be

1) Yamamoto

1.5) Aizen

2) Kyoraku, Ukitake, Unohana (no particular order)

2.5) Gin (Honestly, only because I feel the narrative holds them above him)

3) Byakuya, Hitsugaya, Soi Fon (no particular order)

4) Tousen, Komomura, Mayuri, Kenpachi (again no particular order, Sidenote: Kenpachi is here because while having a lot of power (more than the other guys here) that's pretty much all he has. He lacks the speed and versatility to be above. Eh, I supposed you could count him 3.5)

[Siriel]

Sounds about right if it's pre-Hollow Tousen.

Well, if we go by how they're presented and not what they've actually done.

I'd put Gin at 2 though. Narration was clearly setting him up to be a significant obstacle even when we were at the point where the fight against Aizen was about to start. And Ichigo couldn't beat him even though Gin wasn't killing him on purpose.

[sunofdarkchild]

We consider him one of the weaker Captains, not the weakest. Honestly, Komamura is a running joke for how useless he is and an unprepared Mayuri isn't all that threatening.

Hitsugaya's fight with Gin showed pretty conclusively that Gin was the strongest of the two. (The fact that Gin's Bankai is completely ridiculous doesn't help.)

I mean, being one of the weaker Captains just mean that he's around Byakuya's level, not that he's Chad.

How did his fight with Gin prove anything? It ended before either one felt the need to use bankai in any version. In the anime Gin seemed stronger, yes, but the upper hand did shift every few seconds. Most of that fight didn't even happen in the manga. Hitsugaya just released his shikai, forced Gin to dodge a few swipes, and caught Gin's arm with the chain, freezing it in ice. Gin used his shikai from behind his haori to kill either Hitsugaya or Momo, and Hitsugaya dodged, and the fight ended completely inconclusively when Matsumoto showed up. Gin hadn't even freed his arm from the ice when he left, and while there is doubt as to how seriously he was fighting (I can't imagine what the purpose of leading Hitsugaya out there was if not to kill him and there is no way Gin did not intend to kill Momo with that shot) if he was fighting seriously that was the best shot he could have possibly asked for, catching Hitsugaya completely by surprise at point blank range. If his shikai is not fast enough to impale Hitsugaya under those circumstances, then the fight can't prove that Gin is the stronger fighter. Smarter, yes. More powerful? Inconclusive.

And the anti-Hitsugaya crowd seems to think that Byakuya is around Kyoraku level, his inability to even see Ichigo's movements during their fight notwithstanding.

[sunofdarkchild]

My view on the captains.

1-Yammamoto.

2- Aizen, he said Yammamoto was stronger, and I'm not conuting the butterfly version.

3-Kyoraku

After that it gets murky. Unohana never fights, and while people are scared of her all the time, all the Z fighters were scared of Chichi, so until she fights or someone says 'she's stronger/weaker than me' I have no idea where to put her. But in general people rate her with Kyoraku.

4-Gin. Based really on the fact that Aizen took him to the real Karakura Town after everything that happened with Tousen and the Espadas. He works with surprise and sneaky manuevers, which is how he got the hogyoku, and his dominating of Ichigo looked to me to be because he was getting under Ichigo's skin with mind games and not because he was stronger.

Second tier starts here.

5-Hitsugaya. Based on his performance against Harribel. In the anime she dominated the fight, while in the manga it was actually pretty even. But even in the anime he could still defend himself effectively against her speed, which was more than even hollowfied Ichigo could do against first release Ulquiora. And like Kyoraku, even when he uses bankai he usually holds back because he's afraid of killing everything within a 7 mile radius.

6-Kenpachi, because he beat the fifth espada (whose name I can't spell, so I won't even try) when hollowfied Ichigo barely beat Grimjow.

7-Byakuya, the fact that he could not follow the movements of Ichigo with just his regular bankai can't be explained away, especially since he places an emphasis on speed. He rates this high because his bankai is awesome.

8-Ukitake- he doesn't do much, and he was 1 hit ko'd by Wonderweiss, who's strength we don't know, but it must be below that of an espada. Though he did take Ukitake by surprise. On the other hand he was able to follow Stark's movements enough to use his energy redirecting ability.

9-Soi Fon, for all her speed, which is her main strength, she could not even follow barragon in his first form, and unlike Kyoraku (as far as we can tell with him) she doesn't use her bankai because it sucks, not because it is too powerful.

10-Tousen. The fact that Kenpachi beat him so badly with the advantage his bankai gave him is huge. Had he had any sort of speed he should have been able to cut Kenpachi to pieces. It's not like Kenpachi is that fast. I assume he gained some strength in HM thanks to the hogyoku in addition . Otherwise I don't see how he cut off Grimjow's arm.

11-Komamura. Never does anything. Always loses. Didn't even take on an Espada during their battle. Just a fraccion that he used his bankai on. And Tousen later, but I still think Tousen dousn't reach high espada level even with his hollowification, and Komamura was still weaker than Tousen and needed help.

12-Mayuri-lost to Ishida. Granted, Ishida used deus ex machina, but still, he lost to Ishida.

[Hazard]

8-Ukitake- he doesn't do much, and he was 1 hit ko'd by Wonderweiss, who's strength we don't know, but it must be below that of an espada. Though he did take Ukitake by surprise.

The guy especially designed to fight with Yamamoto and who does a better job at it compared to everyone but Aizen is below an espada?

Sidenote: Unohana is generally placed high because side material (databook, and captain stats) places her that high.

[sunofdarkchild]

The guy especially designed to fight with Yamamoto and who does a better job at it compared to everyone but Aizen is below an espada?

Sidenote: Unohana is generally placed high because side material (databook, and captain stats) places her that high.

He was designed to seal away Yammmamoto's Zanpakto. It's a special ability that is ineffective against anyone else. Even without his sword Yammamoto was beating him to a pulp. It's like Ukitake against Stark. His shikai's ability made him the better choice to counter Stark's release even though Kyoraku is stronger.

We see from Yammy and a few others that intelligence is not a requirement for an Espada. Strength is the only measurement. If Wonderweiss was powerful enough to be an Espada he would have been one and made one of the others a priviron espada. And he could not do a thing to hollowfied Mashiro or base, barehanded Kensei.

[Hazard]

He was designed to seal away Yammmamoto's Zanpakto. It's a special ability that is ineffective against anyone else. Even without his sword Yammamoto was beating him to a pulp. It's like Ukitake against Stark. His shikai's ability made him the better choice to counter Stark's release even though Kyoraku is stronger.

You do not understand. That's still better than everybody else (save Aizen). Hell, the guy got punched by Yamamoto and didn't die from it.

Yeah, Mashiro was kicking him around, but he was in retard mode, and let's face it, he was pretty much undamaged by the time her power ran out.

Did we ever see the end of his fight with Kensei?

I mean given that one of the two was still up and fighting, I am going to say the weird kid won that one.

[sunofdarkchild]

You do not understand. That's still better than everybody else (save Aizen). Hell, the guy got punched by Yamamoto and didn't die from it.

Yeah, Mashiro was kicking him around, but he was in retard mode, and let's face it, he was pretty much undamaged by the time her power ran out.

Did we ever see the end of his fight with Kensei?

I mean given that one of the two was still up and fighting, I am going to say the weird kid won that one.

If you count filler it isn't. Amagai did the same thing in his arc and still lost to hollowfied Ichigo who couldn't even use his full strength because of the same effect. And by that logic Muramasa is more powerful than all other characters combined. And a number of people have taken hits from Yammamoto's shikai and survived, like Kyoraku and Ukitake, so taking hits from hit fist is not all that impressive. What I assumed was that Wonderwiess didn't get ko'd immediately because we see from his earlier fights that he doesn't react to pain.

But even if that's not the case, as I said, being more effective against a certain opponent because of a strange way your abilities mesh is not a sign of how powerful you are. Just like the Hinamori regais could beat and even kill Hitsugaya despite his being in another league.