Bleach Manga/Anime Discussion Thread II

[1505627]

Really?

I'd say that sealed Grimmjow could beat Byakuya, Hitsugaya, Komamura, Mayuri and Soifon even if they used bankai, though in Soifon's case it'd be a bad thing to use bankai since it'd slow her down. And I'd throw Kenpachi into that group as well.

maybe if he didn't called hitsugaya Shiro-chan....


yes, that was a reference

[Dark Soul # 7]

maybe if he didn't called hitsugaya Shiro-chan....


yes, that was a reference

Really? To what?

Yes, that was sarcasm.

...and it was Yammy that called him Shiro-chan.

[Hazard]

maybe if he didn't called hitsugaya Shiro-chan....


yes, that was a reference

That's hardly fair. Hitsugaya Rage Mode nearly annihilated the Espada on his own.

Edit: Wait, he was on Eleventh Division Mode at the time, wasn't he? Oh well, Rage Mode is just a step or so below so it is still overkill.

[Holy Spirit]

Because that's sorta the subject at hand?Even so, in actuality this still means that Ichigo's shikai is his sealed sword and his bankai is his shikai. Because he never used his shikai and the only thing his bankai actually does is making him as fast as the sixth Espada.

Ya know, I always felt that..... if Ichigo's shikai wasn't the permanently "on" type it wouldn't have been quite so bad.

Kenpachi is the only other example I can think of and he can't use bankai at all. So his shikai had to be formidable out of sheer necessity, and Ichigo's shikai was originally portrayed as on his level so...... yeah.


I don't think that Ichigo's shikai would have been played up to the same degree of Kenpachi's "All I need is two hands!" because he has bankai in reserve...... but I don't think he would have had to rely so much on the mask down the line.


For example the Ulquiorra fight would have been a lot better if masked Ichigo was more or less on par with released Ulquiorra and then, to Ichigo's horror, Ulquiorra reveals his second released state and then the owning starts. I would have preferred that instead of Ulquiorra's released state being superior and the second release state being even higher than that.... to the point that we never really got to see what his first release state could do really.

[Dark Soul # 7]

That's hardly fair. Hitsugaya Rage Mode nearly annihilated the Espada on his own.

Edit: Wait, he was on Eleventh Division Mode at the time, wasn't he? Oh well, Rage Mode is just a step or so below so it is still overkill.

It's kind of difficult to judge the difference of power between the two modes.

When he was in Eleventh Division Mode Aizen foolishly ordered everybody to restrain Hitsugaya rather than kill for fear of brain-eating viruses or somesuch.
When he was in Rage Mode there were three espada that were actually trying to kill him.

BTW, anybody else who had the Arrancar Therapist as their own ensemble darkhorse? I found her hilarious.

[sunofdarkchild]

What do people think of the powerups that are worse than useless and hurt more than they help? The biggest offender by far is Zommari, the "fastest espada" who stood completely still after using his resurecsion. A lot of good speed does for him then. Komamura's bankai ends up being a bigger target that gives all the damage it recieves to him. Soi Fon can use one bankai attack every three days and has so far done a better jop blowing herself away with it than her opponents.

All of these make me scratch my head at how they were conceived or why the warriors in question would use them (in context it makes sense for Soi Fon, at least).

[Hazard]

What do people think of the powerups that are worse than useless and hurt more than they help? The biggest offender by far is Zommari, the "fastest espada" who stood completely still after using his resurecsion. A lot of good speed does for him then. Komamura's bankai ends up being a bigger target that gives all the damage it recieves to him. Soi Fon can use one bankai attack every three days and has so far done a better jop blowing herself away with it than her opponents.

All of these make me scratch my head at how they were conceived or why the warriors in question would use them (in context it makes sense for Soi Fon, at least).

To be fair, Zommari was a moron.

A humongous moron.

I'll agree that Komamura's and Soi Fon's Banaki are unwieldy, especially Soi Fon's. Komamura gets a giant that can do more damage than what he can usually dish out, which is hindered by him still being a target and not controlling it from the inside like a mecha.

Soi Fon... yeah. It's more like an Attack than a Bankai. It probably screws up her mobility as well.

BTW, anybody else who had the Arrancar Therapist as their own ensemble darkhorse? I found her hilarious.

Yeah, she was funny.

[Ghost]

Really? I can see Grimmjow beating up a few of the captains even after they use their bankai on him without using resurrection.

A few, maybe, but they will still be able to put up a fight. They are not going to need to use bankai right from the start just to be in the same general league.

Really?

I'd say that sealed Grimmjow could beat Byakuya, Hitsugaya, Komamura, Mayuri and Soifon even if they used bankai, though in Soifon's case it'd be a bad thing to use bankai since it'd slow her down. And I'd throw Kenpachi into that group as well.

I don't really see Grimmjow reliably taking Byakuya down without resurreccion. It would be a tough fight but in the end I think Byakuya is just too versatile.

Mayuri, maybe, if Mayuri does something stupid and try to match him blow for blow rather then relying it prep.

I give Hitsugaya decent odds, could go either way, though come to think of it he hasn't used his shikai much - he's probably the one captain who uses his bankai almost as much as Ichigo.

Komamura loses, due to his generally low speed and lack of high-end kido.

I see Soifon doing well if she can play on her advantages; like Mayuri she can't hope to take him blow for blow but she's almost certainly somewhat faster, has two very devastating attacks and presumably decent kido.

Kenpachi probably wins presuming he doesn't dick around too much. If he is at least semi-serious his advantages outweigh his disadvantages, though Ichigo demonstrated that one can still take him down just by hitting him with enough overwhelming force, so I suppose Grimmjow might nail him with a Gran Ray Cero before Kenpachi decides he needs to end the fight.

We really need to stop acting as if Komamura is actually a captain.

Eh, it's not that he's terrible, he's just very unbalanced. He's basically a tank, designed to take down other tanks or obliderate large amounts of weaker opponents.

Ya know, I always felt that..... if Ichigo's shikai wasn't the permanently "on" type it wouldn't have been quite so bad.

Kenpachi is the only other example I can think of and he can't use bankai at all. So his shikai had to be formidable out of sheer necessity, and Ichigo's shikai was originally portrayed as on his level so...... yeah.

It's not that Kenpachi's shikai is formidable, it's that Kenpachi is. In fact, he technically can't use shikai at all since he doesn't know the name of his sword, hence he can't make use of any abilities it might have.

I don't think that Ichigo's shikai would have been played up to the same degree of Kenpachi's "All I need is two hands!" because he has bankai in reserve......

But that's the point I've been trying to make for the last couple of pages: Ichigo's bankai wasn't a final resort, it was a necessity. If he had just had more time to spend on really training his shunpo, he wouldn't need his bankai.

What do people think of the powerups that are worse than useless and hurt more than they help? The biggest offender by far is Zommari, the "fastest espada" who stood completely still after using his resurecsion. A lot of good speed does for him then.

As Hazard pointed out, it was not so much that his resurreccion sucked as it was him being a moron.

Zommari's released form was actually totally broken, because it let him defeat nearly anyone by basically looking at them. You don't need to be fast when you can do that. The problem was that he kept bragging about it, explaining to Byakuya exactly what it did, and generally dragging it out until Byakuya had time to figure out countermeasures.

[Miburohunter929]

We really need to stop acting as if Komamura is actually a captain.

.....

I'm going to pretend I did not read this.

[Holy Spirit]

It's not that Kenpachi's shikai is formidable, it's that Kenpachi is. In fact, he technically can't use shikai at all since he doesn't know the name of his sword, hence he can't make use of any abilities it might have.

Yeah.... but what I'm trying to get at is Kenpachi + shikai was more or less even with Ichigo + shikai.

Kenpachi + shikai stayed formidable because he had no where else to go in terms of power ups. Beyond using two hands..... nothing changed on his end yet he was still taking down an espada.

Or to put it another way... if Kenpachi had acquired a bankai before his fight with the fifth espada, I think his shikai would have been down played to make the bankai look good.

But that's the point I've been trying to make for the last couple of pages: Ichigo's bankai wasn't a final resort, it was a necessity. If he had just had more time to spend on really training his shunpo, he wouldn't need his bankai.

LOL I see what's happening.

We're thinking the same thing... but you're looking at it from inside the manga while I'm looking at it from the outside.

Basically, I think if Ichigo didn't have the mask his bankai would have been portrayed as more amazing like in the Byakuya fight. The same way Kenpachi + shikai is still portrayed as amazing even though he hasn't actually gotten any power ups.

It also doesn't help that at the same time Ichigo suffers from a missing step in the power up chain by not having a sealed mode for his sword. So his shikai becomes the equivalent of his sealed mode while his bankai becomes the equivalent of his shikai. Then his mask becomes the bankai/trump card.

[Dark Soul # 7]

You know. All this talk about how Ichigo's bankai only makes him faster got me thinking.

Doesn't that also mean that his shikai has the same fire-power as a captain level bankai?

[Robotech Master]

You know. All this talk about how Ichigo's bankai only makes him faster got me thinking.

Doesn't that also mean that his shikai has the same fire-power as a captain level bankai?

I think that Ichigo's Bankai training increased his reiatsu and offensive power in general to a level that you would expect of a captain, it's just that his Bankai doesn't really reveal or up that much, just focuses it more, and puts a lot of that focus on speed.

This is illustrated in the way he one shot all those lieutenants with his fists, compared to his prolonged fights with Renji and Ikkaku. He got all that power only after completing the bankai trainining, but he doesn't need the Bankai active to use it.

[Hazard]

I think that Ichigo's Bankai training increased his reiatsu and offensive power in general to a level that you would expect of a captain, it's just that his Bankai doesn't really reveal or up that much, just focuses it more, and puts a lot of that focus on speed.

Actually, Ukitake already calls his reiatsu captain level before he does the Bankai training, and given that he had gone with Zaraki on a pure power vs power contest, I am inclined to believe that.

After that, Unohana herself notes that his reiatsu in Bankai is at captain level when he has less than half of his reiatsu left.

Of course, Captain level is kind of a broad term since you have Mayuri and Yama both being captains.

Edit: Then again Ichigo has weird uncontrolled Reiatsu. Even Ulquirra notes that at times it spiked even above his... though he was having inner hollow troubles at the time.

[Dark Soul # 7]

New chapter is out:

Classic Bleach-style decompression. This is going to take awhile me thinks.

Storywise we're told that Ichigo is just one of five individuals that the Vandenreich have labeled "special weapons". The others are obviously Hantarou, Ururu, Yachiru and Gantenbainne.

[Ghost]

I see I must correct myself once again. Apparently it's Emperor Manlybeard.

New chapter is out:

Classic Bleach-style decompression. This is going to take awhile me thinks.

Still, some interesting stuff does happen.

I'm kinda surprised the quincy guy was so casual about pulling Letz Steil all of a sudden. What with the "you lose all your powers" thing.

I also wonder what he was hinting at regarding Ishida.

Storywise we're told that Ichigo is just one of five individuals that the Vandenreich have labeled "special weapons". The others are obviously Hantarou, Ururu, Yachiru and Gantenbainne.

Obviously.