Bleach Manga/Anime Discussion Thread II

[Hazard]

I'm not sure "surpassed" is the right word. Ichigo's main advantage is his crazy reiatsu and sheer talent for fighting, but he was always in such a hurry he never had time to train properly except for that one time when they used weird time displacement to cheat.

For all the upgrades Ichigo asspulls, they are usually more like shortcuts. He needed bankai to take on opponents the average captain could probably handle without using shikai and since his bankai was no longer the trumfcard it's supposed to be he needed the Vizard form to take on the really dangerous opponents.

Essentially, by Shinigami standards his basic skills suck, precisely because he didn't have centuries to spend honing them. He needed the big powerups right away, but once he had them he couldn't make full use of them. He pretty much always needs a handicap to win.

Individually, He can beat more than half the captains by the time he enters Hueco Mundo. So I am going to say surpassed.

Sure, you can say they may be more skilled, but he is more powerful.

Also, I am not quite sure you can say his skills suck. He had an even one on one match with Byakuya, with both of them using shunpo and sword skill. The far more experienced Renji plainly couldn't do that.

And chapter's out.

I am liking this arc. Maruri's Maryuri. Yamamoto is Yamamoto. And new bad guy may be older than I thought.

[Ragnorok64]

Wait, 28,000 people? Soul Society sucks!

[Hazard]

Wait, 28,000 people? Soul Society sucks!

Honestly, the most amusing part for me was that Yamamoto plainly says Mayuri didn't have to go behind his back to do this. He would have been okay with it.

They don't call him old man genocide for nothing.

[The Drunkard Kid]

In all fairness, it WAS to keep the universe from collapsing.

Of course, this does kinda make the extermination of the Quincies seem to be a public service, if it wasn't for all the freaky torture Mayuri claimed to have put them through.

[Jabare]

The whole Universe collapsing theory is bunk, its all about collecting souls for the Soul King and increasing Soul Soceity's power. Quincy's don't destroy the universe when they kill. They just de-organize the energy. Instead of a hollow devouring something and becoming stronger, or a zanpakto sending a soul to hell or soul society/heaven. Quincy simply disperse that energy scattering it randomly. Obviously the Soul King and Soul Reapers aren't going to have that. Thus the Quincy extermination. Now its time for pay back

[Ghost]

I love that Ichigo goes: "Wait, that's not the shinigami superspeed technique, or the arrancar superspeed technique, or even the fullbring superspeed technique! That's the quincy superspeed technique! OMFG, YOU GUYS ARE QUINCIES! Just as I suspected ever since that guy who dressed like a quincy attacked me with what was clearly a quincy weapon!"

So there are at least four types of flash steps that all look exactly the same and do exactly the same thing yet it's apparently possible to tell the differance between them at a brief glance. oO

Oh well. I'm guessing the Stern Ritter will be the Quincy equivalent of the Espada.

I also find it curious that Quincy can apparently live for over a thousand years despite supposedly being humans. Though, I suppose it's possible King Manlybeard is a special case.

Also, apparently Soul Society is totally okay with genocide on it's own citizens if they think the situation calls for it. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but that's still a bit jarring.

OK, I know that someone will try to defend the direction this arc is going in but I'm seriously mortified.

Consider this:

Some dude is invading Soul Society because of some grudge about some stuff that happened long ago.

This is literally THE plot of Bleach filler.

Now in manga form.

That is all.

Eh. That really has nothing to do with the quality of the storyarc - it can be anything from the Bount arc to the Zanpakutou Rebellion arc. And Kubo himself never used that plot before so it's not like he's being repetative. And at least the Quincy were set up waaaaaaay in advance.

Go Quincy get those evil Soul Reapers make them atone for their countless sins

...Yeah, because it's not like the Quincy were about to destroy the entire cosmos out of a relatively petty desire for revenge on a naturally occuring spiritual predator.

I get that you are trying to get into some kind of team spirit here, but at least be fair about it.

Individually, He can beat more than half the captains by the time he enters Hueco Mundo. So I am going to say surpassed.

Sure, you can say they may be more skilled, but he is more powerful.

No, I mean, he couldn't beat them on even terms.

Say Ichigo and, I dunno, Soifon fought each other. Can Ichigo beat her? Probably, but Soifon is crazy good at shunpo, so he'll have to use his bankai just to keep up with her. (This is also the only thing his pre-dangai bankai does: it allows him to keep up with captain level fighters in terms of speed. Making it possibly the worst bankai in Bleach, because it doesn't actually provide an advantage.) Now, Soifon could use her shikai to fight him, but she could just as well just stab him to death with her sealed sword. She's also rather good at kido, reducing Ichigo's advantage in firepower somewhat.

In other words, Ichigo with bankai roughly equals Soifon with sealed zanpakutou.

Also, I am not quite sure you can say his skills suck. He had an even one on one match with Byakuya, with both of them using shunpo and sword skill. The far more experienced Renji plainly couldn't do that.

I'm not talking about pure fighting skill. I already admitted Ichigo is a genius fighter. I'm talking about the basic skills all other shinigami spend a lot of time aquiring and mastering before they move on to advanced stuff like bankai. Ichigo lucked out in the sense that his bankai was exactly what he needed to negate Byakuya's massive advantage in speed and offensive capacity. And Byakuya was still basically winning in the end, until Ichigo's hollow decided to bail him out. See what I mean? Even when the odds are stacked heavily in Ichigo's favor he still needs an extra advantage in order to win.

Just look at his fight with Grimmjow. In fact, let's cut him some slack and skip the humiliating asskicking he was served in their first encounter. When their final fight came around, Ichigo still needed his bankai just to keep up with regular Grimmjow. Again: Ichigo with bankai = captain-level opponent at baseline. Then he needed the Vizard mode to take on Panthera Grimmjow in one of the most even fights in the entire series. He literally needed to go one step above captain level just to fight evenly with the Sexta Espada.

Compare this to Hitsugaya fighting released Hallibel evenly with just his bankai. Or even worse, Shunsui taking out Stark with only his shikai.

Now imagine if Hueco Mundo arc Ichigo fought one of the Vizard captains. He's probably lose, because once they are both in vizard mode he'd be the one at a disadvantage and he's run out of tiers to climb. He'd need some new asspull powerup just to be on the same level as people like Shinji, because he basically skipped the first level.

[Jabare]

...Yeah, because it's not like the Quincy were about to destroy the entire cosmos out of a relatively petty desire for revenge on a naturally occuring spiritual predator.

I get that you are trying to get into some kind of team spirit here, but at least be fair about it.

See this is a misnomer I'm sure Kubo will clear up when we learn about what happened 1,000 years ago.


The whole Universe collapsing theory is bunk, its all about collecting souls for the Soul King and increasing Soul Soceity's power. Quincy's don't destroy the universe when they kill hollows. They just de-organize the energy. The energy from a spirit or a soul can be neither created nor destroyed. However, that energy can change forms, and energy can flow from one place to another. The total energy of an isolated system remains the same. When the Quincy attack it is simply a different way of transferring that energy than a Hollow or a Soul Reaper. Instead of a hollow devouring something and becoming stronger, or a zanpakto sending a soul to hell or soul society/heaven. Quincy simply disperse that energy scattering it randomly. Obviously the Soul King and Soul Reapers aren't going to have that. Thus the Quincy extermination. Now its time for pay back

[Hazard]

No, I mean, he couldn't beat them on even terms.

Say Ichigo and, I dunno, Soifon fought each other. Can Ichigo beat her? Probably, but Soifon is crazy good at shunpo, so he'll have to use his bankai just to keep up with her. (This is also the only thing his bankai does: it allows him to keep up with captain level fighters in terms of speed. Making it possibly the worst bankai in Bleach, because it doesn't actually provide an advantage.) Now, Soifon could use her shikai to fight him, but she could just as well just stab him to death with her sealed sword. She's also rather good at kido, reducing Ichigo's advantage in firepower somewhat.

In other words, Ichigo with bankai roughly equals Soifon with sealed zanpakutou.

I am not quite sure how much I agree with this. I would very much hesitate to call Bankai Ichigo Captain level speed. There are captains that I plainly don't see reacting to Ichigo's speed. Byakuya outright couldn't do it. Ichigo could have killed him right at the beginning of the fight if he wanted to (and later on they were only even because his Bankai started taking a toll on his body, a problem that has mysteriously vanished ever since).

Kenpachi, Komamura, Mayuri, Toshiro, Regular Tousen, Byakuya. All these are guys that I plainly don't see being near Bankai Ichigo's speed.

I am also not sure if I see Soi Fon as being on the level of Banaki Ichigo.

Just look at his fight with Grimmjow. In fact, let's cut him some slack and skip the humiliating asskicking he was served in their first encounter. When their final fight came around, Ichigo still needed his bankai just to keep up with regular Grimmjow. Again: Ichigo with bankai = captain-level opponent at baseline. Then he needed the Vizard mode to take on Panthera Grimmjow in one of the most even fights in the entire series. He literally needed to go one step above captain level just to fight evenly with the Sexta Espada.

Compare this to Hitsugaya fighting released Hallibel evenly with just his bankai. Or even worse, Shunsui taking out Stark with only his shikai.

Being completely fair here, part of that was Hitsugaya's popularity power. Hallibel later on showed no trouble fighting Bankai Hitsugaya plus two vizards. And by the same token, Ichigo casually sliced Yammi's arm off, when Hitsugaya (using Bankai and no limiter) was having trouble with him.

That said, I agree, Shunsui would kick Hueco Mundo Ichigo's ass, but he is pretty much the top of the captain tier. Shunsui could also take on Byakuya using Bankai with just his Shikai. You could throw in Kenpachi for good measure and the result would be the same.

Now imagine if Hueco Mundo arc Ichigo fought one of the Vizard captains. He's probably lose, because once they are both in vizard mode he'd the one at a disadvantage. He'd need some new asspull powerup just to be on the same level as people like Shinji, because he basically skipped the first level.

I am honestly not sure. They don't seem to be able to keep up the mask as long as he does (at least after the whole punched through the chest by Ulquiorra). I would have to see their Bankai first.

[Fast]

Hooray for Yachiru! Does she look any different post time-skip? I couldn't tell

[Robotech Master]

I love that Ichigo goes: "Wait, that's not the shinigami superspeed technique, or the arrancar superspeed technique, or even the fullbring superspeed technique! That's the quincy superspeed technique! OMFG, YOU GUYS ARE QUINCIES! Just as I suspected ever since that guy who dressed like a quincy attacked me with what was clearly a quincy weapon!"

So there are at least four types of flash steps that all look exactly the same and do exactly the same thing yet it's apparently possible to tell the differance between them at a brief glance. oO

Well, Full Bring you would notice the bringer light, at least.

For Hirenkyaku, IIRC, the reason you'd notice it is because they aren't 'moving' so much as 'coasting.' They like, ride reishi or have it carry them like a wave or something.

Oh well. I'm guessing the Stern Ritter will be the Quincy equivalent of the Espada.

Yeah, I bet they are their captain equivalents.

[sunofdarkchild]

Being completely fair here, part of that was Hitsugaya's popularity power. Hallibel later on showed no trouble fighting Bankai Hitsugaya plus two vizards. And by the same token, Ichigo casually sliced Yammi's arm off, when Hitsugaya (using Bankai and no limiter) was having trouble with him.

That said, I agree, Shunsui would kick Hueco Mundo Ichigo's ass, but he is pretty much the top of the captain tier. Shunsui could also take on Byakuya using Bankai with just his Shikai. You could throw in Kenpachi for good measure and the result would be the same.



I am honestly not sure. They don't seem to be able to keep up the mask as long as he does (at least after the whole punched through the chest by Ulquiorra). I would have to see their Bankai first.

Hitsugaya didn't use his bankai at all after Hallibel broke out, only his shikai. Even when Aizen intervened he hadn't yet called on his ice wings. I think he wanted to either recharge it or save it for Aizen. And when Ichigo cut off Yami's arm Yami was not using his sword. Ulqiuora commented on how sad it was for Yami to even think of using his Zanpakto on Ichigo. With Hitsugaya Yammi was using his sword from the start.

Shunsui's shikai is weird, because it technically allows either side to do much more damage than their actual power would normally allow. The attack that killed Stark would not have been even a major wound if not for the game.

[Hazard]

Hitsugaya didn't use his bankai at all after Hallibel broke out, only his shikai. Even when Aizen intervened he hadn't yet called on his ice wings. I think he wanted to either recharge it or save it for Aizen. And when Ichigo cut off Yami's arm Yami was not using his sword. Ulqiuora commented on how sad it was for Yami to even think of using his Zanpakto on Ichigo. With Hitsugaya Yammi was using his sword from the start.

I'll trust you on the first part, but I am now even more tempted to call it popularity power.. The second part... honestly, unless, grabbing his sword suddenly makes him more durable, it really has nothing to do with it.

Shunsui's shikai is weird, because it technically allows either side to do much more damage than their actual power would normally allow. The attack that killed Stark would not have been even a major wound if not for the game.

Well yeah, but it is his power, and it is powerful.

[sunofdarkchild]

I'll trust you on the first part, but I am now even more tempted to call it popularity power.. The second part... honestly, unless, grabbing his sword suddenly makes him more durable, it really has nothing to do with it.



Well yeah, but it is his power, and it is powerful.

And Hitsugaya also didn't use bankai against Yammi, only shikai. I don't know why I only just saw that in your post. Reading too fast, I guess. He used bankai after he broke off from fighting Yammi when Luppi was about to release. So it was Ichigo using bankai against unarmed Yammi while Hitsugaya was using shikai against armed Yammi.

No denying Shunsui's zanpakto is insanely powerful, but it would allow a fraccion (who would admittedly have to be brillaint to figure out the games) to kill him. I see why he doesn't even use his shikai much. If his bankai is similar then it really should be only used as a last resort because the danger to himself must be immense.

[master of read]

See this is a misnomer I'm sure Kubo will clear up when we learn about what happened 1,000 years ago.


The whole Universe collapsing theory is bunk, its all about collecting souls for the Soul King and increasing Soul Soceity's power. Quincy's don't destroy the universe when they kill hollows. They just de-organize the energy. The energy from a spirit or a soul can be neither created nor destroyed. However, that energy can change forms, and energy can flow from one place to another. The total energy of an isolated system remains the same. When the Quincy attack it is simply a different way of transferring that energy than a Hollow or a Soul Reaper. Instead of a hollow devouring something and becoming stronger, or a zanpakto sending a soul to hell or soul society/heaven. Quincy simply disperse that energy scattering it randomly. Obviously the Soul King and Soul Reapers aren't going to have that. Thus the Quincy extermination. Now its time for pay back

Well we don't know who or what the soul king is so at this point, its not right to call the balance bunk because you dont like it.

[sunofdarkchild]

Well we don't know who or what the soul king is so at this point, its not right to call the balance bunk because you dont like it.

One of the disappointments of the Karakura Town invasion arc.