Bleach Manga/Anime Discussion Thread II

[Hazard]

If you count filler it isn't.

Which, I don't, and even if I did, it is irrelevant to my point. He got punched in the face by Yamamoto and didn't die.

I can count the Espada that died from less than that.

[sunofdarkchild]

I think you're now making Yammamoto out to be a heck of a lot more than he is. Yes, he's the strongest, and yes he can probably beat most of the captains with with bare hands like Ichigo beating the lieutenants. That doesn't mean he can kill them with one punch. The only one in Bleach who does that is Chad. It took more than one hit from his shikai to beat Kyoraku and Ukitake, which is a heck of a lot stronger than his fist. By that logic Hinamori is on the level of the espada for surviving when Aizen stabbed her. We all know that that is still quite a bit more deadly than a punch from anyone.

Doyou really think that Yammamoto would kill Yammi with a punch? What evidence is there that his fist is more deadly than a captain's released Zanpakto?

[Ghost]

12-Mayuri-lost to Ishida. Granted, Ishida used deus ex machina, but still, he lost to Ishida.

Lets be fair. Mayuri was owning Ishida until Ishida went for his power sacrificing limit break move.

And. honestly, I think most captains would have had serious trouble with Limit Break Ishida, what with his absurd speed and firepower. I'd give him good odds against Hitsugaya or even Byakuya, and he'd pretty much murder poor Komamura.

[sunofdarkchild]

Lets be fair. Mayuri was owning Ishida until Ishida went for his power sacrificing limit break move.

And. honestly, I think most captains would have had serious trouble with Limit Break Ishida, what with his absurd speed and firepower. I'd give him good odds against Hitsugaya or even Byakuya, and he'd pretty much murder poor Komamura.

I said that Ishida used deus ex machina.

And I'd imagine that any captain with a good defense or decent speed would at least be able to hold off Ishida without serious injury in that event. Senbonzakua would almost certainly stop it. Komamura, on the other hand, he gets any injury his bankai gets, so he's in trouble.

[Hazard]

Doyou really think that Yammamoto would kill Yammi with a punch? What evidence is there that his fist is more deadly than a captain's released Zanpakto?

It's Yammi, and I mean that in the least flattering way possible. He'd find a way to get killed before the punch lands while talking about how he is the 0 espada and therefore the strongest.

Honestly, you said weird kid is weaker than the Espada. There are Espada that have gotten killed by less than good ol' man genocide's punch.

The latter firmly disproves the former.

[sunofdarkchild]

It's Yammi, and I mean that in the least flattering way possible. He'd find a way to get killed before the punch lands while talking about how he is the 0 espada and therefore the strongest.

Honestly, you said weird kid is weaker than the Espada. There are Espada that have gotten killed by less than good ol' man genocide's punch.

The latter firmly disproves the former.

Again, what proof or even evidence do you have that Yammamoto's punches are that powerful? Where is it stated that his punch is dealier than a sword to the heart or the brain? He's not Gohan and the Arrancar are not Cell Juniors.

[Hazard]

Again, what proof or even evidence do you have that Yammamoto's punches are that powerful? Where is it stated that his punch is dealier than a sword to the heart or the brain? He's not Gohan and the Arrancar are not Cell Juniors.

For one, weird kid (that's way easier to write) got punched through many, many buildings, destroying them in the process. As far as strength feats go, yeah, pretty damn impressive.

Unless you want to argue that, say, Rukia's Shikai or Mayuri's sword stab do more damage than that.

[sunofdarkchild]

For one, weird kid (that's way easier to write) got punched through many, many buildings, destroying them in the process. As far as strength feats go, yeah, pretty damn impressive.

Unless you want to argue that, say, Rukia's Shikai or Mayuri's sword stab do more damage than that.

When they stab through the brain and the heart, I sure do. Those are guaranteed fatal wounds (unless you're Hinamori), especially considering that striking the head of a hollow with a Zanpakto is almost always a one hit kill. A bunch of generic punches to someone with regenerative capabilities is never something you can expect to kill an opponent.

[Hazard]

When they stab through the brain and the heart, I sure do.

And there goes the possibility of having any discussion. I mean it is not like, people have durability to tank sword slashes demonstrated time and time again. Nope, swords automatically go through everything.

You're pretty much arguing Mayuri's sword stab has the power to stab through several buildings.

[Fast]

If I had to rank the captains, it would be

1) Yamamoto

1.5) Aizen

2) Kyoraku, Ukitake, Unohana (no particular order)

2.5) Gin (Honestly, only because I feel the narrative holds them above him)

3) Byakuya, Hitsugaya, Soi Fon (no particular order)

4) Tousen, Komomura, Mayuri, Kenpachi (again no particular order, Sidenote: Kenpachi is here because while having a lot of power (more than the other guys here) that's pretty much all he has. He lacks the speed and versatility to be above. Eh, I supposed you could count him 3.5)

I'd agree with this (though Unohana wouldn't be up there if this was a rumbles topic since lack of feats, but I'd guess she belongs there. Ukitake healthy would be there too, I'd guess when he gets ill he dips a bit to what level though I don't know). I'd actually put Hitsugaya at 2.5 (and he's my favorite bleach character) since he's lacking the speed to be with Byakuya and Soi fon IMHO.

As for Hitsugaya, he's divisive in America because he's so popular in Japan and some people thought that the prodigy label meant he had to be really strong not that he got to captain level really fast and has lots of potential to quickly become a very powerful captain. The weakest captain label isn't very prevalent on CBR from what I've seen though. You're right his fights were sort-of fight with Gin where neither wa going all out (Gin even less so though), lost to Aizen, was losing with limiter in place then one-shot, smacked by Luppi and instead of charging back up there readied super attack which ended fight, then had elemental battle with Harribel (which filler anime has her not putting her all into it). Its very hard to read Toshiro's abilities on just these fights (did I miss any?).

Also Mayuri has 3 levels to me
1. Prep (he's quite good with it)
2. Sans prep but opponent doesn't know about Mayuri
Mayuri can be really good if he can get you offguard with his paralysis sword or poison baby bankai, etc. When you know his tricks he loses some effectiveness but is still clearly captain level and above lieutenants.
3. no prep and everyone knows his moves and no nemu.

Edit: Mayuri = Bleach's Hidan!

[sunofdarkchild]

And there goes the possibility of having any discussion. I mean it is not like, people have durability to tank sword slashes demonstrated time and time again. Nope, swords automatically go through everything.

You're pretty much arguing Mayuri's sword stab has the power to stab through several buildings.

And who besides Kenpachi showed that ability? Pretty much just the the fifth espada, and he didn't put up a good show of it either. And Ichigo was able to cut Kenpachi even before his inner fight that brought his power close to Zaraki's. Even Aizen could be wounded by the zanpaktos of people much weaker than him. Durability and susceptibility to sharp magical objects are not the same thing.

As a captain, even a weak one, there's no reason Mayuri shouldn't be able to destroy multiple buildings with a single movement of his sword. It has been stated that the only reason the captain's swords aren't the size of skyscrapers is because of the control of the captains.

And Mayuri stabbed an opponent who could no longer move or use his reiatsu, which is key to withstanding a zanpakto strike without injury. And plenty of people have been knocked through buildings or across town. It happened to Ichigo a lot in his fights with Grimjow and Ulqiora. He only truly lost when people blew or stabbed holes in him, not when he went sailing through buildings.

[Hazard]

...

Hierro

...

Can I get a facepalm pic, please?

There's no reason Mayuri shouldn't be able to destroy multiple buildings with a single movement of his sword.

...

Pretty please?

[sunofdarkchild]

Again.....Sigh.......

"It has been stated that the only reason the captain's swords aren't the size of skyscrapers is because of the control of the captains."

I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.

Ichigo could destroy walls and buildings when he fought Ikkaku. Renji with his bankai tore through lord knows how many buildings. Why in the world should a captain not be able to do better? Especially on earth, where the buildings are probably nowhere near as strong as in the SS or HM.

Oh, and I meant to mention before, OMAEDA of all people was able to cut off Soi Fon's arm without his shikai. That is a lame lieutenant who could still kill his captain without releasing his Zanpakto if he stabbed her.

[Robotech Master]

Shinigami don't have Hierro though. They project/emanate Reiatsu from their bodies to counter that of their opponent to achieve their endurance. Soi Fon wanted Omaeda to cut off her arm, so she would not be defending against it.

For Hierro, there does seem to be a level of durability associated with some that requires a certain level of power to crack it, and piercing/slashing doesn't necessarily seem like it will achieve so much more than impacts or blasts. It's all force one way or the other.

[Siriel]

How did his fight with Gin prove anything?

Gin managed to point his sword toward Hitsugaya numerous times during the fight. In Bankai, that'd mean that Hitsugaya would be dead.

As is, Hitsugaya was having trouble dodging Gin's shikai, which is so much slower that it's not even funny.

(I can't imagine what the purpose of leading Hitsugaya out there was if not to kill him and there is no way Gin did not intend to kill Momo with that shot)

The entire point of Gin's actions in that arc was to act as a red herring to stop people from suspecting Aizen. Not to kill people, but to make it look like he was the traitor.

If he'd wanted to kill Momo with that hit, he could just called Bankai while executing it.

And the anti-Hitsugaya crowd

What crowd is that?