CBR: Permanent Damage - Aug 4, 2010

[Steven Grant]

IMO there is an excuse for a draft if the cause is a threat to that very principle of personal liberty of which you speak...

As Americans have never been shy about stepping up to the plate for causes and wars they believe in against enemies they believe threaten them, their loved ones and a good future, in theory under the circumstances you cite there'd be no need for a draft, because citizens would be lining up to fight. (This was the case in the early portion of the Iraq invasion, and was the case following Pearl Harbor.) Where a draft is necessary is for fighting stupid and unnecessary wars, like Vietnam, where enlistments don't match the military need for cannon fodder. It's to avoid a need for a draft that the neo-con myth of the pocket war, fought quickly by a tiny but supremely capable force, was concocted. But it's really not wars, for the most part, that demand a draft. It's occupations.

- Grant

[Steven Grant]

Btw, when I said "that seems to have been lost in the discussion (perhaps purposely)," I don't mean OUR discussion here, I'm speaking of what's going on in the country in general right now. This draft thing is just another red herring IMO.

It may not be an ultimate goal, but it's certainly a real proposal that has been kept fairly unknown to the general public, so I wouldn't say it's a red herring, exactly. If they were drawing attention to it with the expectation that it would never pass anyway, that would be a red herring. This is more along the lines of limiting opposition so it can be quietly passed, though there's still a long road before it gets to that pass, though Congress can move pretty damn quickly when it's of a mind to.

- Grant

[Drusilla lives!]

As Americans have never been shy about stepping up to the plate for causes and wars they believe in against enemies they believe threaten them, their loved ones and a good future, in theory under the circumstances you cite there'd be no need for a draft, because citizens would be lining up to fight. (This was the case in the early portion of the Iraq invasion, and was the case following Pearl Harbor.) Where a draft is necessary is for fighting stupid and unnecessary wars, like Vietnam, where enlistments don't match the military need for cannon fodder. It's to avoid a need for a draft that the neo-con myth of the pocket war, fought quickly by a tiny but supremely capable force, was concocted. But it's really not wars, for the most part, that demand a draft. It's occupations.

- Grant

Are you trying to justify your own past position on the Vietnam War to me, or yourself? Because as far as I know, yes, it appears that Vietnam was stupid (as are all wars with the passage of time), particularly since (as history has played out) they're doing quite well for themselves (as far as embracing capitalism anyway). As for being unnecessary, well again, all wars would be unnecessary if mankind were made up of saints, or perhaps just as good, islands unto themselves. I would add though that it's probably better not to go around starting them... particularly when we're very bad at this "empire" building stuff.

But getting back to the draft... the evil inherent in the draft IMO is not that it exists (at least for now only in concept), but that it is misused or has the potential to be misused not only by our delegation of powers to others, but in its actual physical implementation.

[Steven Grant]

Are you trying to justify your own past position on the Vietnam War to me, or yourself?

Um... what position is that? Wasn't aware I was justifying anything...

But getting back to the draft... the evil inherent in the draft IMO is not that it exists (at least for now only in concept), but that it is misused or has the potential to be misused not only by our delegation of powers to others, but in its actual physical implementation.

Yeah, absolutely. Plus it's just conceptually evil.

- Grant

[Drusilla lives!]

I hate to sound unfeeling, or disrespectful... to you or anyone here who lived through (and perhaps even fought in) Vietnam... but the truth is (at least as I see it), no one gives a shit about Vietnam. IMO no one gives a shit about hippies, the counter-culture, or anything much else from that era really... although (IMO) we're still living with the effects of the excesses of that time (particularly the widespread use of recreational drugs, which is another subtle form of slavery, again IMO).

It should go without saying, but we're in a new era where all nations have to answer to a "higher" authority... namely that of the "wheelers and dealers" of the global economy. And if we should learn anything from Osama, it's that there is much to be concerned about in this new world, particularly when those wheeler and dealers are no longer content with boasting about the size of their yachts, and move on to how many men they have under command. In light of this, yes, it (the draft) is slavery if it is misused as you suggest... particularly if military power is indeed "for sale" to simply support other mercantilistic aims. And of course, if that's the case, it's slavery IMO for a more obvious reason... they should pay a decent wage.

[Steven Grant]

I hate to sound unfeeling, or disrespectful... to you or anyone here who lived through (and perhaps even fought in) Vietnam... but the truth is (at least as I see it), no one gives a shit about Vietnam.

Oh. I don't care about any of that. I only bring up Vietnam because it was the last American war (er... "police action") in which the draft was a significant factor. It was fallout from Vietnam that eventually shut down the draft altogether, so in that regard it's germane to the discussion. Whether you or anyone else gives a rat's ass about any other aspect of the Vietnam War at this point who cares? Except where it might illustrate or illuminate current situations, of course...

- Grant

[Drusilla lives!]

It's not that I don't "give a rats ass," I feel for those who suffered through it (particularly for those who did make the sacrifice and go)... nor is it the case that I think nothing useful or positive came out of the period on the whole. But we've also had to live through the aftermath of it, and unfortunately that wasn't (and judging by what's going on in Mexico, still isn't) all too romantic.

But basically my point is that it's mostly just water under the bridge... and for those who don't see it that way, well... get over it.

EDIT: I should clarify (if it's not obvious), that IMO most of the "good" aspects of that era are amongst the things carried away on the water under the bridge... what IS left is mostly crock... or should I say "crack." Nuff said (at least by me)... I return you to your regularly scheduled programming... mainly the discussion of that movie I'll never see.

[Steven Grant]

But basically my point is that it's mostly just water under the bridge... and for those who don't see it that way, well... get over it.

It's still germane to discussions about the draft, by way of illustration. But you'll have to explain that Mexico thing to me. I don't get your line of thought there at all.

- Grant

[Drusilla lives!]

Well IMO, Calderón is right in one regard... we here in the US DO have a problem with drug use (which has gotten progressively worse since the 60s).

It's an easy way out for him to call for legalization, but then I can't blame him too much for that when they're hanging bodies from lamp posts.

It wasn't germane to the draft discussion, but then maybe it is, if one of the reasons behind the draft were to use the troops to shore up security at the southern border.

[Drusilla lives!]

I sorta realize (after rereading the last few posts) that I should try to better explain what I was driving at... particularly since you're not a mind reader.

As you mentioned in your article...

... (if passed) all Americans between 18 and 42 "to perform national service, either as a member of the uniformed services or in civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, to authorize the induction of persons in the uniformed services during wartime to meet end-strength requirements of the uniformed services, and for other purposes." Given that Iraq drove recruitment way south, and that the ridiculous continuation of our involvement in Afghanistan (our Pakistani allies are feeding the money we give them to the Taliban we're fighting in Afghanistan – the Taliban they invented?!! Gosh, I never saw that coming!) is putting further squeeze on military capabilities, and there are a couple other "defense of American corporate right to make profits" wars brewing under the guise of "fighting terrorism," ...

... it just seems to me that there could be something more to that "other purposes" bit, and not necessarily for more troops to deal with the Taliban in Afghanistan (and hence your Vietnam redux scenario). Since IMO the drug cartels just to the south of us could be viewed as much as a threat (if not more so) then the phantom menace a world away (that is, if they aren't already).

How's a drug war just south of Las Vagas sound? If Calderón has (understandably) folded his hand, then IMO we might eventually be "occupying" a good portion of our own country (or maybe even parts of Mexico). But then perhaps (as you note) we won't need a draft then will we? Eveyone will be "stepping up" I suppose... except you of course.

Hey, you never know... but of course it is a rather far fetched idea. One for which I'm not losing any sleep over (I'm not losing any sleep over the Taliban either for that matter).

[Steven Grant]

I sorta realize (after rereading the last few posts) that I should try to better explain what I was driving at... particularly since you're not a mind reader.

I'm actually pretty good at reading minds... but it works better in person.

- Grant

[Drusilla lives!]

Eveyone will be "stepping up" I suppose... except you of course.

Tee, hee... I guess I still don't get it do I? Well, I never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the bunch.

All I'll say is Ford makes an awful lot of cars in Mexico and leave it at that.

[Drusilla lives!]

I'm actually pretty good at reading minds... but it works better in person.

- Grant

Well, we could join forces and work as a team... perhaps even go on the road... we can work the comedy circuit, like Abbott and Costello.

[Steven Grant]

There is no comedy circuit anymore. Everyone's so damn serious about everything.

[Drusilla lives!]

And it's a damn shame too, isn't it... I mean, I really think we had the routine down pat.