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  1. #1

    Default A JMS critic who loves this new direction for WW!

    I've written several posts that were very critical of what JMS was doing with Superman, and how I was afraid that he would ruin Wonder Woman too. Well, let it never be said that I’m not man enough to admit when I was wrong. I love the new costume design, as well as the direction that JMS has indicated he wants to go with this story. Having a hard retcon as part of the story is brilliant and does not invalidate Perez or any creator that has gone before IMO. Now, Wonder Woman is my favorite superhero (or heroine) so I was fine with the old costume, and I liked the invisible jet, the purple ray, the kangras, and all those kitschy elements. But the fact is that a lot of people, especially non-WW fans, didn’t. And if you look at the iconic costume, without bias, it is definitely one of the least practical to wear in a fight. Now, Superman has an impractical costume too, but Wonder Woman has always been presented as a master battle technician, who has “The Art of War” committed to memory. It doesn't make sense that this kind of character would go on a mission with a costume that exposes so much of her body (making it vunerable to attack–not for modesty’s sake) or one where her breasts would pop out in the middle of a struggle. It doesn't make sense for the character not to change her costume voluntarily to make it as practical as possible in a fight. And this costume does. In JMS's interview on CBR, he explains exactly why he changed each part of the costume so that it makes sense.
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    I think JMS is approaching WW in the same way Morrison approached the X-men when he took over. He’s not writing for the current fans; he wants to attract non-comic book readers, and comic fans who were just not into her. He has listened to all the complaints about WW, (she’s too perfect, I don’t like mythology, she’s too preachy, she can’t relate to ordinary people) and has attempted to address this with this story. As many of you have pointed out, this book has sold very poorly for awhile now. I don’t expect WW to sell Batman numbers on a monthly basis, but I do expect her to be the top selling female superhero in the industry, and I don't think this an unrealistic goal to strive for. There is no reason why Wonder Woman should not sell as much as the new Batwoman (40– 45 k a month). I was planning on trade waiting for this, but I may have to buy each issue just to put my support behind what JMS is doing. Thoughts?
    Last edited by Morlock50; 07-01-2010 at 04:20 AM.

  2. #2

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    Heck, i would love to see the day when a female solo is selling the same numbers as one of the A-List men. Despite this almost never happening, i believe the recipe is out there for it to happen.
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  3. #3
    Nigel33 nigel33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morlock50 View Post
    I think JMS is approaching WW in the same way Morrison approached the X-men when he took over. He’s not writing for the current fans; he wants to attract non-comic book readers, and comic fans who were just not into her. He has listened to all the complaints about WW, (she’s too perfect, I don’t like mythology, she’s too preachy, she can’t relate to ordinary people) and has attempted to address this with this story.
    I'm glad you like new costume. I believe that with a bit of tweaking here and there, we might just have the definitive WW costume.

    But I gotta disagree with the complaints you just listed; they are the kind of comments tossed around by people who don't read the title.

    The idea that Wondie was preachy or too perfect, in recent runs like Rucka's or Simone's, is plain nonsense. Anyone who read either run could tell you that. Its something Geoff Johns introduced, in Infinite Crisis in particular, it appears to be largely his perception of the character, and has somehow become this weird recurring meme, like that Aquaman is lame thing or Superman is too perfect and needs to 'be human again'.

    The question here, is Wondie unrelatable...or do people just want her to be grittier and darker? Its not the same thing.

  4. #4
    Wheres my invisible Tiger Spiffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel33 View Post
    I gotta disagree with the complaints you just listed; they are the kind of comments tossed around by people who don't read the title.

    The idea that Wondie was preachy or too perfect, in recent runs like Rucka's or Simone's, is plain nonsense. Anyone who read either run could tell you that. Its something Geoff Johns introduced, in Infinite Crisis in particular, it appears to be largely his perception of the character, and has somehow become this weird recurring meme, like that Aquaman is lame thing or Superman is too perfect and needs to 'be human again'.

    The question here, is Wondie unrelatable...or do people just want her to be grittier and darker? Its not the same thing.
    Whoa. Hold up.

    It may be WRONG that she's too preachy or perfect in the actual stories, and it may be a point of view held mainly by people who didn't read the runs, but THAT'S EXACTLY THE PROBLEM. The perception.

    The reality matters less than the perception--at least in terms of gaining new readers. You can't "solve" that inaccurate perception held by a large amorphous anonymous group by harping on how its not true. They aren't listening.

    So you tell the world you are making her more accessible, the media covers it, you rope the new fans in, and you don't really have to hit them over the head with how they were always wrong about the character. Why bother? Who does it serve to moan about how the perception is inaccurate? The pride of current fans? Big deal.

    Let JMS and DC say what they need to. And frankly, I'm not totally convinced it IS all wrong. I think many Wonder Fans are SO protective they sometimes can't see the forest for the trees. She's accessible to the devoted fans who KNOW her and who can accurately decipher the characterization we're all familiar with, and she's less accessible to those who don't know all the deeper aspects of the character. You have to stick with the character, know her better, to see her accurately. So that probably CAN come off seeming like preachiness or an excess of perfection--at least looking in from the outside of her most loyal fandom.

  5. #5
    Nigel33 nigel33's Avatar
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    So...if someone states something I know is untrue, I can't correct them, cos it might annoy those fans who believe something false about the character, and you don't want them scared off?

  6. #6
    Junior Member drewr15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morlock50 View Post
    .
    I think JMS is approaching WW in the same way Morrison approached the X-men when he took over.
    Sorry whenever I see Morrison and X-men in the same sentence I vomit a little in my mouth. I pray JMS's WW run is better than what he did on X-men.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiffy View Post
    Whoa. Hold up.

    It may be WRONG that she's too preachy or perfect in the actual stories, and it may be a point of view held mainly by people who didn't read the runs, but THAT'S EXACTLY THE PROBLEM. The perception.

    The reality matters less than the perception--at least in terms of gaining new readers. You can't "solve" that inaccurate perception held by a large amorphous anonymous group by harping on how its not true. They aren't listening.

    So you tell the world you are making her more accessible, the media covers it, you rope the new fans in, and you don't really have to hit them over the head with how they were always wrong about the character. Why bother? Who does it serve to moan about how the perception is inaccurate? The pride of current fans? Big deal.

    Let JMS and DC say what they need to. And frankly, I'm not totally convinced it IS all wrong. I think many Wonder Fans are SO protective they sometimes can't see the forest for the trees. She's accessible to the devoted fans who KNOW her and who can accurately decipher the characterization we're all familiar with, and she's less accessible to those who don't know all the deeper aspects of the character. You have to stick with the character, know her better, to see her accurately. So that probably CAN come off seeming like preachiness or an excess of perfection--at least looking in from the outside of her most loyal fandom.
    I agree with you completely here. Sometimes I think that Wonder Woman's status as a ICON and a member of the trinity work against the character, because it prevents real or lasting change to occur in the title. Put it this way; I was a big fan of Gail's run, but she often wrote stories like she was a superfan who didn't want to disrupt what Rucka, Jiminez, or Perez did before her. She would never have, for example, Etta Candy die in a story, because HOW COULD YOU KILL ETTA? SHE'S WW'S BEST FRIEND! I have the same problem with Jiminez's run (which I feel is very much overrated). Sometimes, you can be so enamored by the character that it prevents you from making creative choices that would be good for the character (and that's leaving out possible editorial mandates that you're forced to follow). What JMS is doing here is long overdue IMO.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Zagreus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morlock50 View Post
    I agree with you completely here. Sometimes I think that Wonder Woman's status as a ICON and a member of the trinity work against the character, because it prevents real or lasting change to occur in the title. Put it this way; I was a big fan of Gail's run, but she often wrote stories like she was a superfan who didn't want to disrupt what Rucka, Jiminez, or Perez did before her. She would never have, for example, Etta Candy die in a story, because HOW COULD YOU KILL ETTA? SHE'S WW'S BEST FRIEND! I have the same problem with Jiminez's run (which I feel is very much overrated). Sometimes, you can be so enamored by the character that it prevents you from making creative choices that would be good for the character (and that's leaving out possible editorial mandates that you're forced to follow). What JMS is doing here is long overdue IMO.
    I agree completely... Simone seemed to write WW as a superfan who loved the character and and adored the character's history... she could never have done what needed to be done with the character... this hard reboot that JMS has given us. Thank goodness! He will actually bring in fans.

    And now I don't have to listen to WW superfans on the internet who "know everything" about WW's history... I can start fresh on the same page with them, with a character who has been rebooted from day one. Thank goodness.

  9. #9
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    I´m happy as a clam, really.

    Mostly, I just wanted the panties gone and Presto!, they are.

    I´m willing to withstand the jacket for now because, as JMS stated, this is a temporary outfit.
    WW is on the run and she needs a costume a bit more low key.

    My prediction, this look will last exactly one issue, three at best.
    At the end of which, she will have put a sleeker, more definitive costume that, hopefuly, will have discarded the jacked but kept the pants.

    And a WW who grew up in NY? That is all sorts of awesome. For starters, we´ll never ever be treated to sad scennes like The Gas Pump and The Turnstile.

  10. #10
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    Why do people whove never read her say how does she not fall out of her costume..thats never come up!!Honestly i think theyre looking for trouble where none exists. And Diana never comes across as perfect[as much as wed like her 2 b]..it was Jimenez who had her as a soap-opera hero, Rucka as a bland cipher to push his political views[DIANA DOSENT EAT MEAT!! yeah, okay, got that....]Byrne as a proto-female Supes who gave her stories up to other characters.. and Heinberg and Piccoult...dont start me off!!

  11. #11
    Member BrianPGH1972's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the new sensation View Post
    Why do people whove never read her say how does she not fall out of her costume..thats never come up!!!
    I've often wondered how Namor's testicles don't accidentally slip out of his briefs when in action, but no one seems too worried about that. lol. Not sure why Diana's bustier elicits such concern.
    Last edited by BrianPGH1972; 07-01-2010 at 03:15 PM.
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  12. #12
    Member BrianPGH1972's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    I´m willing to withstand the jacket for now because, as JMS stated, this is a temporary outfit.
    No, JMS didn't say the costume was temporary. At least not in anything I've read.

    Didio, on the other hand, stated that they're all hoping the new look sticks.

    Again, I'll agree that this new look makes sense for the story they're trying to tell. But that's all the longer it need last.
    "Change their minds, and change the world."

  13. #13
    Veteran Member Leocomix's Avatar
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    What JMS did was to supermanize WW. She's now an orphan who lost her world as an infant and was sent to America.

    Everybody's an orphan these days: Flash was the latest victim, now it's Diana.

  14. #14

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    [QUOTE=BrianPGH1972;11456928]I've often wondered how Namor's testicles don't accidentally slip out of his briefs when in action, but no one seems too worried about that. lol. Not sure why Diana's bustier elicits such concern
    Because WW has a higher profile than Namor. She even has her own forum

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by the new sensation View Post
    Why do people whove never read her say how does she not fall out of her costume..thats never come up!!Honestly i think theyre looking for trouble where none exists. And Diana never comes across as perfect[as much as wed like her 2 b]..it was Jimenez who had her as a soap-opera hero, Rucka as a bland cipher to push his political views[DIANA DOSENT EAT MEAT!! yeah, okay, got that....]Byrne as a proto-female Supes who gave her stories up to other characters.. and Heinberg and Piccoult...dont start me off!!

    I agree with you that most of the people who criticize the outfit are not current WW fans. The question is, should DC ignore this criticism and/or tell the non-fans that they don't know what they're talking about? Or would it be smarter to make some cosmetic changes in the costume that would lead to an increase in sales?

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