The X-Men Vs Black Panther, Storm, She-Hulk and Namorita

[Shade101]

He doesn't have to encase her in a block of ice - he can freeze her body to a statue, shutting the whole thing (including her brain) down. That'll work.

She hasn't shown immunity to that, not by Rumbles' standards.

A statue? She's been there done that. Except she was made of chrome.

[Shade101]

Ororo has a very high resistance to cold, but that doesn't mean she has immunity. I think that's the point we're trying to make, at least.

So if Iceman hits her with his absolute zero attack, it should be enough to incapacitate her. If he busted out a bog standard ice attack on all the X-Men then she would withstand it. No argument there.

Debating with someone else? But you said I was the only one

Correct. He can incapacitate her, the same as she can to him. But even if Ororo is restrained she can use her powers without being able to move.

And I meant that I was in class trying to pay attention all while debating with you! Lol

[Will M]

Correct. He can incapacitate her, the same as she can to him. But even if Ororo is restrained she can use her powers without being able to move.

And I meant that I was in class trying to pay attention all while debating with you! Lol

Well, incapacitated being unconcious kinda dealy. Not just encased in ice. Although Bobby has frozen the Hulk for a 10 count before, so I'd imagine he could do it to Ororo also. But was more thinking along the lines of freezing her brain solid. Cos it's just cooler.

Well, I don't think you should be debating in class really. Sleeping is what class is for, yah know?

[Shade101]

Well, incapacitated being unconcious kinda dealy. Not just encased in ice. Although Bobby has frozen the Hulk for a 10 count before, so I'd imagine he could do it to Ororo also. But was more thinking along the lines of freezing her brain solid. Cos it's just cooler.

Well, I don't think you should be debating in class really. Sleeping is what class is for, yah know?

Hah! I'm out of class now. I do think a nap is in order.

[Surtur]

Well you're entitled to your own opinion homegirl. But the captions and pictures don't lie!

I'm just going to point out that while captions don't necessarily lie, they can sometimes be wrong. Not saying that any involving Storm or Iceman are wrong, but it can and has happened before.

[Dwayne McDuffie]

The writer Mcduffie specifically confirmed that Storm in fact created a hydrogen bomb by splitting them to create Nuclear fission. The lightning was only used as a familiar effect.

Did I? She hit him with a big honking lightning bolt, somewhere on the order of 10 terawatts (probably more, but that seems like plenty to me), it's an impressive feat, and even more impressive that all it did was knock him off balance.

Two things, if you read the issue, Surfer isn't even trying to hurt the FF, he's trying to figure out what they're up to. He says so. Several times. He *yells* at the other herald when she blasts Panther off of him in the infamous armbar scene because he wanted Panther to talk. Also, in that same issue, the Thing knocked him down with a rock. That he *threw* at him. This doesn't seem to irritate people as much as the Panther grabbing him, even though with a strict application of the Surfer's demonstrated abilities (casually dodging between asteroids while surfing at faster-than-light speeds, while having an internal monologue about the nature of humanity, and the meaning of good and evil), it's even less likely.

Second thing, I've been reading Silver Surfer since his first appearance (when he was, in fact, a humanoid wrapped in foil and granted the Power Cosmic. I'm told this has changed, but apparently Tom Brevoort didn't know about it either, which in my world makes it a reasonably little-known fact). He's been punched off of his board by the Thing, knocked off of his feet by Namor, and pistol-whipped by a couple of Doom's guards. In the Defenders/Avengers war, he was affected (but not hurt) by punches from the Panther. At that time, his power level was certainly lower than now, but he still moved at faster than light speed unprotected through space. No one on Earth should ever be able to touch him. If he's shrugging off punches from the Hulk *unprepared*, he's absolutely useless as an antagonist. Also, he shouldn't ever bother changing direction when he flies in space, why not just plow through everything? He wouldn't even notice.

Isn't it more fun if he's a very strong Humanoid, who can be affected by terrestrial level force, unless he pointedly uses his power to protect himself? Why would we want to read about a guy so fast he can't be attacked, and so strong that if you somehow strike him, it can't hurt him at all? It's like Superman in the sixties. I'm genuinely curious.

[Holacik]

Holy crap, is that really the writer?

[Will M]

Isn't it more fun if he's a very strong Humanoid, who can be affected by terrestrial level force, unless he pointedly uses his power to protect himself? Why would we want to read about a guy so fast he can't be attacked, and so strong that if you somehow strike him, it can't hurt him at all? It's like Superman in the sixties. I'm genuinely curious.

Well, there are ways to take the Surfer out. I have no issue with the way T'Challa power drained the Surfer, who as you stated wasn't going all out.

Surfer has always been written as powerful, as has Galactus. As the Marvel Universe has expanded then both have gotten more powerful as a result. I feel you didn't really take that into account in the story.

Superman in the 60s had magic and Kryptonite weaknesses, so you had ways to take him out. Current Superman is worse for my money.

I have enjoyed a lot of your FF stories though, my favourite was My Dinner With Doom. Hope to see you back on the title one day!

[Sharpandpointies]

Did I? She hit him with a big honking lightning bolt, somewhere on the order of 10 terawatts (probably more, but that seems like plenty to me), it's an impressive feat, and even more impressive that all it did was knock him off balance.

That certainly clarifies the issue (honestly, the idea that it was meant to be a nuke was baffling me, given Storm was only thirty feet away). Thank you, Mr. McDuffie, for taking the time to stop in and clarify. :)

Two things, if you read the issue, Surfer isn't even trying to hurt the FF, he's trying to figure out what they're up to. He says so. Several times. He *yells* at the other herald when she blasts Panther off of him in the infamous armbar scene because he wanted Panther to talk. Also, in that same issue, the Thing knocked him down with a rock. That he *threw* at him. This doesn't seem to irritate people as much as the Panther grabbing him, even though with a strict application of the Surfer's demonstrated abilities (casually dodging between asteroids while surfing at faster-than-light speeds, while having an internal monologue about the nature of humanity, and the meaning of good and evil), it's even less likely.

We'd call the Thing hitting him with a thrown rock somewhat unlikely as well around here due to his speed. Myself, I wasn't aware of that happening. :)

Second thing, I've been reading Silver Surfer since his first appearance (when he was, in fact, a humanoid wrapped in foil and granted the Power Cosmic. I'm told this has changed, but apparently Tom Brevoort didn't know about it either, which in my world makes it a reasonably little-known fact).

Coolness. :)

He's been punched off of his board by the Thing, knocked off of his feet by Namor, and pistol-whipped by a couple of Doom's guards. In the Defenders/Avengers war, he was affected (but not hurt) by punches from the Panther. At that time, his power level was certainly lower than now, but he still moved at faster than light speed unprotected through space. No one on Earth should ever be able to touch him. If he's shrugging off punches from the Hulk *unprepared*, he's absolutely useless as an antagonist. Also, he shouldn't ever bother changing direction when he flies in space, why not just plow through everything? He wouldn't even notice.

This, I completely understand. From a story standpoint, he needs to have weaknesses.

The Rumbles board, however, operates using the high-end feats consistent with the character. Which means that for Rumbles' purposes, we end up with a Surfer who wanders through Black Holes without harm, who takes a punch in the jaw from Class 75 Jen Walters without moving, who gets punched around by the Hulk completely without harm, etc.

It's the nature of the board.

...the Rumbles board, not the Surfer's.

Isn't it more fun if he's a very strong Humanoid, who can be affected by terrestrial level force, unless he pointedly uses his power to protect himself? Why would we want to read about a guy so fast he can't be attacked, and so strong that if you somehow strike him, it can't hurt him at all? It's like Superman in the sixties. I'm genuinely curious.

You're not going to get any disagreement here. I'm more prone to read stuff like (Cassandra Cain) Batgirl than I am Superman. Stories require characters who can be threatened.

However this being the CBR Rumbles board, for the purpose of our 'versus' debates, we operate by a standard set of rules. We do that for a reason - if we didn't, we'd have people arguing 'But the Surfer has been hurt by a guy with a brick' and the other people saying 'But he wanders through black holes unharmed!', both being upheld on-panel. :) (I seem to recall someone pointing out that someone has hurt the Surfer with a brick at one point)

I can't even imagine the anarchy this would cause...not to mention the endless, circular debates.

Hence, the Rumbles board going with 'High-end feats consistent with the character'. :)

[Will M]

(I seem to recall someone pointing out that someone has hurt the Surfer with a brick at one point)

Yes, that was Karnak. Even though his power set is to "see the flaw in anything", it seems way above the stuff he normally has done. He's kind of like Val-lite.

[Sharpandpointies]

Yes, that was Karnak. Even though his power set is to "see the flaw in anything", it seems way above the stuff he normally has done. He's kind of like Val-lite.

At least there's a reasoning for it, in that case - for some reason I was under the impression it was some thug with a brick. :)

[oldsmokey]

Isn't it more fun if he's a very strong Humanoid, who can be affected by terrestrial level force, unless he pointedly uses his power to protect himself? Why would we want to read about a guy so fast he can't be attacked, and so strong that if you somehow strike him, it can't hurt him at all? It's like Superman in the sixties. I'm genuinely curious.

I don't think many people would want comic books to be written with strict adherence to the CBR forum rules. As you say, they wouldn't be as fun.

For debating purposes here, high end power levels are used. Other forums use the average power levels of a character. Depending on the rules used, the outcome of a fight can vary wildly between forums (or between comics and forums.) It's really an intellectual exercise rather than a blueprint for "the way things should be."

By "intellectual exercise" I mean "fun way to kill time waiting for this week's comics to come out."

[Will M]

At least there's a reasoning for it, in that case. :) Not like some of the low-end showings we've seen with other characters over the years.

Shh, ixnay on the rmbaryay.

[Sharpandpointies]

I don't think many people would want comic books to be written with strict adherence to the CBR forum rules. As you say, they wouldn't be as fun.

Picture the Flash's comic.

O_O

[Sharpandpointies]

Shh, ixnay on the rmbaryay.

Astonishingly, I wasn't thinking about that. :) More about Firelord, Flash, Batman/armored cowl versus keyboards, that sort of thing.