Controversial Avengers Opinions

[Vic Vega]

I don't know, I just don't get the Avengers vibe when I think of her. I love the Harras run, but I think she sticks out like a sore thumb in it. When I think of Crystal, FF and Inhumans come to my mind, not Avengers.
Strange has everything to be an Avengers, it's just that, before "Money Makers" Bendis wrote him, I don't think he'd want to be a member of a structured organization such as the Avengers. Strange was never much for following anybody's lead, but his own.
As for Druid, I think the best about him is that he proves that not all Avengers are perfect Avengers. He is the black sheep of the team, and I like that. Plus, have you read the Caos War Avengers mini? IMHO, he was awsome in it, but still a grade-A jerk.
Two-Gun really doesn't bring anything to the team. He was Hawk's "outta-time" buddy, and that's about it. As for Val, the only thing I've seen her do as an Avenger is behead a few guys, so, no. We have plenty of other god-guys who show a little bit more of restraint. Untill she proves otherwise, let her stay with the Defenders. I like her there more, anyway.

Peace

Crystal worked to me because she along with Wanda and Pietro have family ties. Maybe they dont get along so well together so at least one of them has to do thier Avenging a continent away from the others but that's pretty realistic to me.

I like that she has this messed up love life tht she is pretty unrepentant about.

As for Dr. Druid...he got screwed man.

Doc Druid should be Frazier Crain with powers, an genial, but arrogant snob who tend to drone on about his latest novel.

I see him commandeering Jarvis kitchen on occasion to serve the Avengers a "real" gourmet meal. I see Druid and Jarvis as buds, Jarvis being the Niles to Druid's Sheffield.

Dr. Druid's classic power set actually works even better for the Avengers than Dr. Strange' s becuse he is not a Deus ex machina. Yes he can do everything Dr. Strange but only if he has a spell book/scroll to read it from.

Dr. Druid is only really tough in his library. Outside of it, he's only a garden variety telepath/telekenetic.

Dr. Strange only works for me as a Defender. To me the Defenders are Team Overkill, the scariest dudes (and chicks) on the planet. That they have even gathered togeter in the same room means that things have seriously gone to hell. I don't see the Defenders as impinging on the Avengers brand or anything like that.

The Defenders don't get out of bed for anything less than the rising of Chthulu and crawling, nameless horrors of that general sort.

[Specimen 297]

I'd be all for that Pym title. But who would be the best writer for a Pym solo book? Slott divided a lot of fans with his Wasp/Scientist Supreme stuff.

[motteditor]

I'd be all for that Pym title. But who would be the best writer for a Pym solo book? Slott divided a lot of fans with his Wasp/Scientist Supreme stuff.

Gage has done good work with him. I also loved Seeley's miniseries. I'd be totally down for another Seeley written and drawn piece, though who knows if he could keep up an ongoing.

[Blind pugh]

The only member of the so called "secondary six" (Pym, Wasp, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Vision) that could possibly be made to work in a solo series is...

Hank Pym (Hawkeye and MOCKINGBIRD could work but that's not solo).

But it would have to be the Englehart era Jumpsuit Pym (however, Monty's right about his get up in Beyond! looking cooler).

You could call the book the Astonishing Dr. Pym, Scientist Supreme.

Dude has a fembot for a Girl Friday and he's got a flying bug-ship that talks as a sidekick.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/roverpym.htm

Just give him a hapless normal as a lab assistant (to contrast with the utter madness) and you are set.

While I'd definitely buy that book I don't think he's the ONLY one who could carry a title. I think a Quicksilver book by someone who understands the character would have great potential. DC has proven over the years that there's a market for speedsters in books & Pietro is overflowing with hooks for stories & he has the all important Avengers tie to buoy him up.

As for Dr. Druid...he got screwed man.

Doc Druid should be Frazier Crain with powers, an genial, but arrogant snob who tend to drone on about his latest novel.

I see him commandeering Jarvis kitchen on occasion to serve the Avengers a "real" gourmet meal. I see Druid and Jarvis as buds, Jarvis being the Niles to Druid's Sheffield.

Dr. Druid's classic power set actually works even better for the Avengers than Dr. Strange' s becuse he is not a Deus ex machina. Yes he can do everything Dr. Strange but only if he has a spell book/scroll to read it from.

Dr. Druid is only really tough in his library. Outside of it, he's only a garden variety telepath/telekenetic.

Completely agreed. I'm still waiting for the good Doctor to make a return. Perhaps whenever Bendis moves on we'll get someone who wants to explore the Avengers' legacy more.

[Nomads1]

Oops, double post. Sorry.

Peace

[Nomads1]

Okay, as I said, when I had a little bit more time, I was going to post who among my list I considered "better" Avengers than others. The ones in bold and italics are the ones I deemed the core of the Avengers, a large part of the team should always be compromised of these characters. They are not necessarily my favorites, but when I think of them, Avengers comes automatically to mind. The bold and underlined characters are those that I think almost made the cut, or have possibility of one day making it. Characters that, IMHO, of course, still have a lot of story potential with the team. The rest are the ones that have played their part on the team, and, although I recognize they deserve to be called Avengers, don't see much use for them on the team anymore (I could always be wrong, and would be gladly surprised if writers proved me wrong).

1- 3-D Man/Triathlon
2- Ant-Man (Lang)
3- Ant-Man (O'Grady)
4- Beast
5- Black Knight
6-Black Panther
7 - Black Widow
8 - Captain America (Rogers)
9 - Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell)
10 - Doctor Druid
11- Falcon
12 - Firebird
13 - Giant-Man (Pym)
14 - Gilgamesh
15 - Hawkeye
16 - Hellcat
17 - Hercules
18 - Hulk
19 - Human Torch (Hammond)
20 - Iron Man
21 - Jack of Hearts
22 - Jocasta
23 - Lionheart
24 - Living Lightning
25 - Machine Man
26 - Madame Web (Carpenter)
27 - Mantis
28 - Mockingbird
29 - Photon (Monica Rambeau)
30 - Moondragon
31 - Ms. Marvel
32 - Nova
33 - Quasar
34 -Quicksilver
35 - Sandman
36 - Scarlet Witch
37 - Sersi
38 -She-Hulk
39 -Spider-Man
40 - Spider-Woman (Drew)
41 -Starfox
42 - Stingray
43 - Sub-Mariner
44- Swordsman (Duquesne)
45 - Thing
46 - Thor
47 - Thunderstrike
48 - Tigra
49 -US Agent
50 -Vision
51 - War-Machine
52 - Wasp (Van Dyne)
53 - Wonder Man
54 - Yellowjacket (De Mara)

Of course, some characters I didn't rank on account of them being currently dead. Still 54 is one heck of a super-hero army.
As for who in the MU I still would want to see if they have what it takes to be make Avengers, I vote for Micheal Collins - Deathlok (Though only after Bendis and his doom an' gloom crew leave the title, otherwise, he'll just be fodder), Son of Satan might also be intertesting as a mystical consultant, maybe the Russian Starlight, and I liked motteditor sugested, Heather Douglas - Vindicator, though I'd still like her to have looks and abilities more dinstinct than those of her husband's.

Peace

[Specimen 297]

Michael Collins is a normal person again though. In the Mutant X universe, Deathlok is apparently the Avengers leader! They have an unusual line-up in that universe: Deathlok, a blind Hawkeye, Iron Giant Man, Hulk and Typhoid Mary. Now, that's an interesting team.

[Nomads1]

Michael Collins is a normal person again though. In the Mutant X universe, Deathlok is apparently the Avengers leader! They have an unusual line-up in that universe: Deathlok, a blind Hawkeye, Iron Giant Man, Hulk and Typhoid Mary. Now, that's an interesting team.

Michael still has nanobots inactive in his blood current. All needed to bring him back, is reactivate them somehow. However, as I stated in many other places, I'd rather Michel stayed inactive with his happy end, then be brought back as a traumatized killing machine or whatever that seems to be the only thing current Marvel thinks intresting in characters.

Peace

[Specimen 297]

Michael Collins should keep his happy ending, yeah. There was a whole army of Deathloks during Dark Reign anyway. And there's a Deathlok over in the X-Men titles at the minute as well. I dunno who it's supposed to be inside that machine (haven't read much of it), John Kelly?

[Corey W]

-Kurt and Perez run is EXTREMELY overrated.

Busiek/Perez run: I disagree completely, but I can see why you say it. The run was not perfect (I disagree, because I don't think anyone thinks it was). Among its flaws:

The Triune understanding plot that ran throughout the run threatened to derail every story in which it appeared. But, it started well (Pagan and Lord Templar were Awesome) with the "someone is trying to make the Avengers look foolish" plot and it wended well, making Triathalon almost likeable. In between, the only thing it really had going for it was that it was funny to watch the Avengers fight the scientologists.

Silverclaw never really worked out. There was a good idea there, but it just never caught on.

Some peopled say that Captain America's portrayal was out of character for much of the run. I was fine with it, but I understand the argument.

Some people also say that the Kang War was too long. I also disagree with that (the arc was, in my opinion, appropriately epic and I reread it at least once a year).

Wanda as deus ex machina.

The Morgan and Kulan Gath stories were weak as good as the Ultron and Kang stories, so the run had an inconsistent feel.

So, while understanding the force of those arguments, here is what I would put against them to defend Busiek's run as one the great Avengers runs of all time (I put it with the Stern and Thomas runs as one of the three best).

First, after the Heroes Reborn era, the Avengers needed to get back to basics. The run was perfect for that and the tone was spot on throughout. It put the core team in one spot, and revisited many of the classic themes from earlier Avengers runs (Wand/Vision/Simon; Pym/Ultron; the difficulty of working with Cap; the 40 year continued growth of the Scarlet Witch; Stern's excellent work with the Wasp; etc.).

Most importantly, Busiek and Perez just made the book fun again by having the Avengers tackle wild and crazy stuff that "no hero could fight alone". They also did more for the Avengers' traditional rogues gallery than any previous creators. Kang was completely reimagined into a competent and frightening villain and it was believable that he hadn't erased the Avengers yet because he was too honorable to "cheat." Ultron, in one of the most awesome story arcs in Marvel history, was tweaked into what he always should have been--the most frightening foe that the Avengers ever faced. Given his work withe other villains, it is too bad that Busiek didn't tackle Loki.

Busiek also earned my undying gratitude by trying to repair the damage that was inadvertantly done to the Vision a decade before. Harras (or one of the writers around then) had started down that road, but Busiek took it a step further. It is a shame that he didn't go all the way and repair the best marriage in comics, but you can't have everything.

It is also the case that most people, when considering the Busiek run, consider Avengers Forever and JLA/Avengers as part of the run. Avengers Forever is almost universally regarded as a top 5 Avengers story and JLA/Avengers is better than any intercompany cross-over has the right to be given how terrible they normally are.

So, while I agree that there are flaws (as there are in every great run (why did Peter David move the Hulk to Florida?; did Stan realize that he wrote Reed as an a****e?; Miller's Daredevil run was great, but I can't help but wonder what it would have been like if Daredevil had been in it?), the flaws aren't major and don't impair the enjoyment of the run as a whole. I already own it on DVD, in individual TPBs, and will buy the "Avengers Assemble" paperbacks if they ever finish putting them out. That run, even more than "Marvels" is what made Busiek a "must buy" author for me.

[Vic Vega]

To me to be an Avenger you just have to be a colorful b-c lister that fits in with the team concept. That it.

So I'll just talk about some of the b and c listers that I like on the Avengers:

Sersi-One moment she’s charming, the next she is reminding you that she can incinerate (or worse) you with a thought. She is not arrogant like Moondragon or Namor, she only she just straightforward. Probably the most dangerous Avenger to cross.

Starfox-Jack Harkness with super powers.

Machine Man-a borderline insubordinate robot with a drinking problem just HAS to be an Avenger.

Hulk-His more stable personas would always be welcome. He’s just never stable for very long.

Firebird-Her religious perspective and on again/off again romance with Pym make her more interesting than many other character.

Mantis-She is the Anti-Firebird. She’s a cosmic Kung-Fu hooker and is pretty pleased with herself about it.

Jack of Hearts-Jack’s literally a walking nuke with anger management issues those are always great to have around.

D-Man-In a lot of ways, he’s an embarrassment. In a lot more ways he a true hero; looking out for the folks that need looking out for most (see:Zerotown)

Dr. Druid-See my earlier Druid rant above.

Lionheart-I like that she’s a single mom. I like even more that she has no patience for the pieties of her colleagues. She is out to stop folks from getting hurt (as she was). How they get stopped isn’t much of an issue with her.

Silverclaw-She could do with a redesign. She should be less Snowbird/Mantis in her look and more Shakira.

3-D Man/Triathalon- Committed to the job, but not a drinker of the Avengers Kool-aid in any way shape or form. Just point him at the ass that needs to be kicked. Probably one of the few guys who could get along with John Walker(USAgent)

[Nomads1]

Steve Englehart's run wasn't all that great in terms of writing, yet it suffered for being highly inconsistent artwise. ( From John Buscema and Dave Cockrum to Mike Brown and Mike Esposito, from Tuska and Chiaramonte to Perez.)

Peace

[lobsterj]

The thing is too many people associate D-Man with what came after his "death". He wasn't an Avenger when he was saving the homeless or living in the sewers or trying to eat loads of pies. Before he died he was a pretty honest, reliable and likeable guy who was just a bit weird (he revealed he had left everything in his will to Steve after knowing him for a few days, he made a new costume for Steve on a whim). He wasn't too great in a battle and was riddled with self-confidence issues, but that doesn't make him any less of a worthy Avenger. He was a guy who instead of escaping false imprisonment by the government decided to stay behind and be subject to unethical interrogation for days because he didn't think escaping was the right thing to do. Shucks, he even "died" heroically trying to save a terrorist from being caught in an explosion.

Everything that came after... yeah, he's pretty much ruined his chances at being worthy of being an Avenger again.

I really blame Bendis for ruining D-man. Sure, Busiek had him the butt of a sight gag regarding his smell during the first few issues of Avengers vol 3, but he also made sure it was noted that he was a true hero and he was one of the first heroes to wake up from Morgan Le Fay's trap. Bendis, in typical Bendis fashion, zeroes in on one aspect of the character and ignored the rest. He made D-man a total one-note joke character, and the jokes don't even make sense.

[Specimen 297]

I really blame Bendis for ruining D-man. Sure, Busiek had him the butt of a sight gag regarding his smell during the first few issues of Avengers vol 3, but he also made sure it was noted that he was a true hero and he was one of the first heroes to wake up from Morgan Le Fay's trap. Bendis, in typical Bendis fashion, zeroes in on one aspect of the character and ignored the rest. He made D-man a total one-note joke character, and the jokes don't even make sense.

Have you ever read the D-Man short story from a recent anthology title? I haven't but from what I've heard it seems they were trying to re-establish D-Man as ... not just a joke.

From what I've gathered from sites, the premise was something like D-Man tries to join the Initiative but Norman Osborn ignores him so he gives up the heroics and enlists in the Army and fights alongside the US in Iraq. At first pretending he's a regular soldier until his squad mates realise he's actually a superhero and he becomes a superhero on the front-lines. Which sounds like an interesting parallel considering... you know... Captain America is his mentor.

The team who made it (can't remember their names) were hoping it would be picked up for a mini-series but it never happened.

They gave him a remade costume (which also gets him away from the "Wolverine" mask):


And there's some unused covers for the series that never happened:



And then a few weeks later in New Avengers we got this.


As I've said, I've never read the above story but it sounds interesting to say the least.

[Corey W]

As I've said, I've never read the above story but it sounds interesting to say the least.

I would definitely read that. If anyone knows where it was, please post.