CBR: When Words Collide - Jan 11, 2010

[rev sully]

This made me laugh.

Thanks.
I mean that in a nice way too. I see parallels because both are these seemingly never-ending stories. Little difference between bad acting and bad art & dialog.

Before the 1930s, pantheons were separated by cultures, mountain ranges, & beliefs, not properties & licenses! Pan-Hellenism! HUZZAH!

I know Callahan hates it but DC One Million uses a Justice League from the 853rd Century. I love the use of the archetypes & properties...and the full-circleness of the Prime Superman. (as Jimi Hendrix said at Woodstock, "blah blah, woof woof". It's what makes DC1MIL one of my favorites, skinny legs & all. Growing up in the 70s & early 80s, I found the DC Multiverse and the MARVEL "What If..." fascinating as well. I wish I had more handle on Marvelman.

[Jim Gourley]

In a way, it's really quite true. The fascinating thing is that there are even multiple approaches to the soap genre.

In the American version, we've got one of the longer running Soaps, Days of Our Lives, that has very few, if any, of the original cast members. Yet the story continues. I'd like to note that actor James Franco (who played Harry Osborn in the what will ostensibly be referred to as the "original" Spidey movies now) took a turn on that show. He showed up as a one-time thing, never to return.

Or will he?

And that's the big thing about Soap operas. You never know who's going to show up or when (or why), and you're never guaranteed how long they'll be on the show. Bit players can wind up becoming major characters. Heck, soaps even rival comic books in the "back from the dead" story department.

Now consider the Soaps playing on Telemundo and Univision. That's right, our neighbors to the south of (and more and more within) the US have a much different approach to the soap opera. You've got one season of this thing. It has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Afterward, there's an all-new show with its own independent story. No wonder they're called telenovelas.

People love Bendis because he's Days of Our Lives. He can keep his god dancing from one crisis to the next, finding fresh conflicts to face in fresh ways over and over. He can keep this up for another two decades.

People love Frank Miller because he's a telenovela. Marv (another character who's fate is known yet is still a goldmine for stories, incidentally) is going to run around town, run amuck, and then run for cover. Turn the page and you've got Hartigan cracking skulls on the beat. Frank can tell one good, gritty story right after the other. He can keep this up for another two decades.

I think Frank has a little more ability to keep going with his world, though. Again, it has to do with the way he's constructed his Pantheon. It's necessarily a dystopian structure teetering on a cliff. He can (and often gleefully does) sweep any piece he wants off the board at will. The hook to Sin City is that we know from the word jump that no one is a god in his Pantheon. They're all flawed mortals, and by their very nature as mortals taking the place of gods in this pantheon, they're all tragic characters doomed to fall in retribution for their heresy.

Then again, Bendis could do the same with Powers. But never with a Marvel (or DC, for that matter) god. It's impossible. No matter how they've tried to kill them, writers for the big two have never successfully killed a character. In the most recent case heroes seem to be demonstrating that they're adapting robust defenses to the attempt. They tried killing Captain America once and he came back twice. It's storytelling brinksmanship, but it has no associated drama because we know they'll never cross the line. Again, I think it has less to do with the gods themselves than how you construct your pantheon, and there's no rule against urban renewal now and then. The forcing function for how the big houses change the roofs over the characters' heads will be audience reception. So long as we continue to follow a model that sees the same number of worshippers coming in as leaving, and has no ambition to increase attendance or retention, then those pantheons, and thus the genre, will remain static.

[MikeCr]

I mentioned Sandman. Can anyone think of another DC or Marvel comic that follows a tragic structure and dares to come to an end?

All-Star Superman?

Superman's destiny is foretold and he must fulfill it and achieve apotheosis, yet be seperated from Lois, to complete his mission of saving the world.

Of course, Grant simultaneously undercuts the tragedy by suggesting that the story will never end.

[Steven Withrow]

All-Star Superman?

Superman's destiny is foretold and he must fulfill it and achieve apotheosis, yet be seperated from Lois, to complete his mission of saving the world.

Of course, Grant simultaneously undercuts the tragedy by suggesting that the story will never end.

Good example, Mike. And a great book.

Here's a link to an essay I rediscovered by playwright Arthur Miller that has many interesting things to say about tragedy in modern drama:

http://vccslitonline.cc.va.us/tragedy/milleressay.htm

[TimothyCallahan]

Hey, I don't hate DC One Million. I think the art is terrible, and I think the story's kind of a mess. But I don't hate it at all. Not even close.

I imagine it being drawn by an imaginative artist and feel sad.

[rev sully]

Hey, I don't hate DC One Million. I think the art is terrible, and I think the story's kind of a mess. But I don't hate it at all. Not even close.

I imagine it being drawn by an imaginative artist and feel sad.

Sorry Tim! ^_^
Being more playful than trying to speak for you. ^_~

[Jim Gourley]

Steve,

Thanks for the Miller piece. That's solid gold stuff, right there. Nothing like Willy Loman to remind you that you can write any kind of story you want so long as the audience relates to the characters. Poor Willy, he may be the epitome of tragic characters. He's just a schmuck and he still finds a way to fall as far as Oedipus. Even worse is that we didn't even talk about him in this forum against the others.

Miller hit a great point in talking about the foundations of a tragic character, though it wasn't his main subject. The tragedy or triumph of the character is relative to how much they aspire to attain. Perhaps that's why All-Star Superman was one of the best titles for that character in years-- because it pushed Superman to do something that was realistically difficult for him. He was knocked down a few pegs and then had it placed upon him to climb back up. That's a rare circumstance for Kal-El.

Meanwhile, Peter Parker always has at least half the world against him. Just getting out of bed is a problem for him some days. So whether you're Zeus or Willy Loman, you can still have epic success or epic failure, so long as you have what are, for you, epic intentions.

[alanganthett]

interesting discussion about superman. it reminded me a bit of grant morrison's ideas on superman (especially all-star #10)

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/100821-All-Star-Morrison-01.html

[alanganthett]

marvel and dc can't kill off their main characters in their normal continuities, but they can in their 'elseworlds' stories