Retcons, they're so dreamy Part 2

[Captain Mobra]

As ugly as I think it is and as frustrating as I find retcons for their own sakes, a pretty monstrous retcon is probably coming down on your Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman very soon. Probably wiping at least the fact that the world knows Peter Parker is Spiderman or possibly as much as Pete's marriage to Mary Jane. Either in One More Day or maybe even in the aftermath.

So I'd like to hear some ideas on how to pull this off respectably or just some basic musings and opinions on massive retcons of this nature.

[Sean Whitmore]

Just so we're clear, the term "retcon" is incorrect here.

If Doctor Strange wiped Peter's identity from the memory of everyone on earth, it wouldn't be a retcon. If Mary Jane lost her memory tomorrow, and as a result wasn't married to Peter anymore, that wouldn't be a retcon. There's nothing retroactive about it. Because those stories where the world knew Peter's identity and MJ was married to him still "happened."

This message has been brought to you by the Foundation of Comic Terminology.


SEAN

[Captain Mobra]

Just so we're clear, the term "retcon" is incorrect here.

If Doctor Strange wiped Peter's identity from the memory of everyone on earth, it wouldn't be a retcon. If Mary Jane lost her memory tomorrow, and as a result wasn't married to Peter anymore, that wouldn't be a retcon. There's nothing retroactive about it. Because those stories where the world knew Peter's identity and MJ was married to him still "happened."

This message has been brought to you by the Foundation of Comic Terminology.


SEAN

Well, what is the correct term for that scenario?

[Mister Mets]

One possibility.

Spider-Man asks Doctor Strange to change history so people don't remember his identity. Doctor Strange had done something similar when he made the world forget about the Sentry, but he refuses to change the world this time arguing that the risk is too great.

Loki arrives, with new reality warping powers similar to the Loki in Ultimates 2 (keep in mind JMS is handling the Thor relaunch, which gives him complete control over the new Loki.) He reminds Spider-Man that he owes the hero a favor from an earlier JMS two-parter, and will subtly remake the world so that no one ever knew Peter Parker was Spider-Man. Peter is ambivalent about this, until Loki informs him that this remaking can not undo an actual death. If Peter waits too long, his poor Aunt May will die on life support and therefore won't be alive in the remade world.

Peter agrees and the world is remade, probably at the moment Aunt May recovers from her injuries and Tony Stark gets a full pardon for Spider-Man.

Loki's plan was successful. No one remembers Peter Parker's identity. Unfortunately this includes Mary Jane Watson, who never learned that Peter Parker was Spider-Man, and therefore never married him. In the end, Peter's left with the memories and experiences from three worlds: the Son of M world, the world where he was married to MJ, and the new one.

As none of the writers are returning to the Spider-Man books, this would probably pave the way for a complete relaunch of the line as this is a bigger change to creative teams/ the status quo than the Mackie/ Byrne reboot. Amazing Spider-Man would probably be the only title to keep its name. One possibility would be to make it a weekly book with rotating creative teams.
http://www.606studios.com/bendisboar...8&postcount=60

Future stories would reference the pre-One More Day continuity a lot less, the same way current comics don't really reference anything between the return of Peter Parker's parents and Paul Jenkins's first issues.

[Brand]

This wouldn't work for one simple reason. I've heard a lot of complaints about the decrease in Spidey's supporting cast. If what you propose is even remotely close to the truth, that MJ would forget that she even knows Peter, then everyone would forget that they knew Peter. Jonah, Flash, the Fantastic Four... every character he's interacted with and built relationships with over the past 40 years would no longer have any knowledge of their friendship. I don't know about you, but that's one the few things other than the dissolution of the marriage that would make me walk away from 616 Spidey for good.

[darkhawk76]

Well, what is the correct term for that scenario?

plot device

[Mister Mets]

This wouldn't work for one simple reason. I've heard a lot of complaints about the decrease in Spidey's supporting cast. If what you propose is even remotely close to the truth, that MJ would forget that she even knows Peter, then everyone would forget that they knew Peter. Jonah, Flash, the Fantastic Four... every character he's interacted with and built relationships with over the past 40 years would no longer have any knowledge of their friendship. I don't know about you, but that's one the few things other than the dissolution of the marriage that would make me walk away from 616 Spidey for good.

Quick clarification.

In my scenario MJ/ Jonah/ etc would still remember Peter Parker. They just wouldn't remember that he's Spider-Man.

[Brand]

Quick clarification.

In my scenario MJ/ Jonah/ etc would still remember Peter Parker. They just wouldn't remember that he's Spider-Man.

But if MJ remembers Peter, why shouldn't they stay married? If it's because she would be in danger, then there's no reason for Peter to ever date again. Does anyone want to read about a Spider-Man who goes through life alone and miserable?

And there are some people, like Felicia, that I happen to like knowing Peter's identity. It's good that he has close friends he can turn to when he's in trouble. Regardless of what she's doing with Fireheart, I'm betting if she had to choose between the two Cat would pick Peter over any guy she's ever been with. Taking away the knowledge of Peter's identity would completely destroy that relationship.

[The Shelf]

You know, would it really be a bad thing if everyone Peter knew forgot he existed? I mean, seriously, it would force them to give Peter a brand new supporting cast with possibly a couple of the original supporting cast members, but his relationship with the originals would be different since he would have to reintroduce himself to them. I think it could be really cool and offer some excellent new story ideas if the entire world forgot Peter even existed. But I know how much comic fans on this board hate change, so maybe this is the wrong place to support such an idea...

[Brand]

You know, would it really be a bad thing if everyone Peter knew forgot he existed? I mean, seriously, it would force them to give Peter a brand new supporting cast with possibly a couple of the original supporting cast members, but his relationship with the originals would be different since he would have to reintroduce himself to them. I think it could be really cool and offer some excellent new story ideas if the entire world forgot Peter even existed. But I know how much comic fans on this board hate change, so maybe this is the wrong place to support such an idea...

I don't have a problem with change, but you have to be careful just what you do to the character. If you don't like the supporting cast, there are other Spidey books out there. If you don't like Spider-Man being married, try USM. Or SMLMJ. Or MASM. There are almost as many books now with an unmarried Spider-Man as there are with a married one.

I'm all for expanding Spidey's supporting cast. It's been shrinking for far too long. But if this plan-or a similar one goes through-it will fundamentally alter his relationship with people like the Black Cat and Human Torch. We've already seen those older stories where he introduced himself to those superheroes--they wouldn't be anything new, just old retreads.

[MythicBrawn]

The Loki scenario sounds plausible. A simple reality warp and no one knows that Peter Parker is Spider-Man. As long as it's not something stupid like, "No More Memory of Peter Parker as Spider-Man." I don't see why MJ and PP couldn't stay married. If anything they would be on the brink of divorce due to Peter's constant unexplained disappearances. Or, maybe they are explained but not very well. DC did something similar with the Flash. I don't know if it stuck but it could work.

[The Shelf]

I don't have a problem with change, but you have to be careful just what you do to the character. If you don't like the supporting cast, there are other Spidey books out there. If you don't like Spider-Man being married, try USM. Or SMLMJ. Or MASM. There are almost as many books now with an unmarried Spider-Man as there are with a married one.

I'm all for expanding Spidey's supporting cast. It's been shrinking for far too long. But if this plan-or a similar one goes through-it will fundamentally alter his relationship with people like the Black Cat and Human Torch. We've already seen those older stories where he introduced himself to those superheroes--they wouldn't be anything new, just old retreads.

Well, to clarify, I have no problem whatsoever with the status quo. I like the current book, and I couldn't care less what happens to the marriage. If they stay married, great, if they don't, great. All I'm saying is that if absolutely everyone who knew Peter and/or Spider-man forgot he existed, it wouldn't be a bad thing. As you say, his supporting cast has been dwindling, so why not completely remove it and built it back up again from scratch?

Also, it appears you're contradicting yourself. First you say that his relationship to characters like Black Cat and Human Torch would be altered, but then you say it wouldn't be anything new... Personally, I don't think it would be retreading old ground at all because (hopefully) those old supporting cast members' personalities have changed since Peter first met them. If he reintroduced himself to JJ, do you think they'd have the exact same relationship they had before? Peter's significantly older now than he was, and who knows, JJ may respect him more now while Peter may be the one to act like a jerk toward him since he still remembers JJ from before.

All I'm saying is that I think there is a huge potential for some really entertaining stories if everyone did forget that Peter existed. But no, I have no problem with the current supporting cast, and I have no problem with MJ or Aunt May. Keep them the same for all I care, but if they do decide to change it, that's great too!

[Joe-Dono]

I would like the whole everyone forgets peter parker.

[Brand]

Also, it appears you're contradicting yourself. First you say that his relationship to characters like Black Cat and Human Torch would be altered, but then you say it wouldn't be anything new...

If Felicia forgets Spider-Man's identity, it will fundamentally change her relationship with Peter. You can't deny that. But we've seen him reveal his identity to her before, even if her reaction would (hopefully) be different now. But taking away all of her memories of him would basically negate all of the growth that has happened between these characters over the past few decades. The same goes for the rest of the supporting cast. Why even bother reading if Marvel's going to hit the reset switch when they don't like the world they've made?

And again, I'd point out that some (and I'd wager it's more like A LOT) of us like what little of the cast is left. There's no reason to get rid of them to bring in a completely new crew. Adding new people is fine, but Spider-Man is as much about the surrounding characters and villains as it is about the hero.

Yeah, there could very well be some pretty good stories told if they did this reset (*cough*Mackie*cough*;) ) but I'd just as soon such a thing didn't take place in the 616. I still think of 616 Spidey as the 'main' Spidey, and I'd really like to keep him as non-f'ed up as possible, and that would seriously mess things up even worse than they are now. Plus, is it too much to ask to leave us with one version of our favorite character who's still happily married? :rolleyes:

[Jimmae]

i really hope they dont do a massive retcon. as someone whos grown up reading spidey, i like the way things are now, sure, he's meant to be the downtrodden everyman, but there is a limit to just how downtrodden one person can get. with all the crap thats already happened to him, and is now happening with the civil war fall out, hasnt the poor guy had enough for a while?

i like that he's married and has a close circle of confidantes, hes meant to be responsible and grown up, and he is, he has a family to look after and protect, if you remove that, there wont be half as much angst and worry whenever hes in a fight, as if he gets caught, so what? its only him.

if people want to read about a teenage, single spidey, they have the ultimate line and the marvel adventures line, the quiet majority like me who enjoys reading about someone in a relationship and growing up should be able to enjoy our mainstream spidey as he is.

if they do wipe all his history and everyones memories of him, i'll stop reading, i dont want to have to invest the next 15 years of my life learning another version of peter, just to have him wiped again when someone else at marvel makes a mistake and doesnt man up to deal with it.