CBR: Wonder of Wonders - Dec 16, 2009

[CBR News]

Throughout Wonder Woman's history, her Amazonian sisters have been a major part of the heroine's story, but in this edition of WONDER OF WONDERS, Martin Gray explores the idea that sometimes you can have too many warrior women.


Full article here.

[Retro315]

I liked this article, very well put, Martin.

While it's lovely that Wonder Woman isn't in a "Krypton" style situation like Superman, where there's "no going back", going back ALL THE TIME kind of kills it. In fact, it's more like if Superman spent all his time in Smallville instead of doing his job in Metropolis. But luckily, we do see him at work semi-regularly.

And although I agree, and like to see Amazons typically relegated to the island ... I do still like to see, as I'm sure some have done, a rogue Amazon who has gone off on her own and found "work" in Man's World, like Mercy Graves or potentially Penguin's new bodyguard.

My one curious point to make ... especially in lieu of certain upcoming Blackest Night events ...

Themyscira/Paradise Island is hidden in the Bermuda Triangle now?

Is that not the exact same location as the portal under the sea which leads to Mera's home dimension of Xebel? (Why yes, yes it is ...)

I smell ancient mythological shenanigans ...

[CaptainCanada]

I have to say I don't agree. Themyscira is the most consistent location in her history, and has a very large chunk of her decent supporting cast. I'd much rather we see them continue to be involved in the world, rather than kicking back in isolation (though it would be nice if somebody could do something about the population).

[RayC]

An argument well presented, Mart. What you presented would cure my Amazon Fatigue.

So would plopping them on Reformation Island and sending it to another dimension for at least 24 issues where they'd learn how to be the true Amazons they were meant to be; a people not focused on war who could believably create the person that Diana is.

[ScottyQuick]

where's the big sacrifice inherent in her going to Man's World?

Well, why does there need to be a sacrifice? Why can't Diana just go "Yes, I'm going to leave Paradise and go teach a whole 'nother world morals and peace and love, because that's the right thing to do." ?

[ultraaman]

As a group yes the Amazons need some off screen time but I would like at least a ballpark answer to how many amazons there are. 2000? 5000? 10000?

I'd like to see usage of some of the individual Amazons we already know. Yes I know creating a new character jettisons continuity baggage but there have been enough tangental Amazons in the past 10 years that we can do with seeing some recycling for a while. Also Artemis needs to be brought back into the fold - tho I enjoyed her in Secret Six - since I doubt Donna can be brought in thanks to Titans and now JLA duty.

[CarolStrick]

In the early days, the facelessness of the Amazons allowed them to be the joyful, perfect philosophers that were the fire behind Diana's beliefs. With the later Bronze Age and especially the Plastic Age filled to the brim with named Amazons with distinct personalities, they were brought to the foreground of stories; therefore, they needed to be part of the Unfolding Drama.

And Drama dictates that spotlighted characters be less than perfect. Oh, how we saw that the Amazons weren't perfect! It was a real WONDER sometimes how Diana managed to come up with her personal philosophy. When the Banas arrived, obviously created to be the very opposite of the Themies, Diana's people couldn't even bestir their own supposed philosophies to embrace and teach their long-lost nieces.

Now that we're in the Dark Age we're faced with the fact that all Amazons, Bana and Themie alike, have a wide, dark streak running through their psyches.

So how did Diana get the idea to be so good? She doesn't have a foundation for her beliefs any more. I think it can all be traced back to making the Amazons--so very many of them!--players in Diana's drama.

Back in the days of the original Star Trek, the writer's guide emphasized that a great deal of the drama came because there was no way for the Enterprise to visit Earth and Starfleet Command except on the rarest of occasions. Therefore, Capt. Kirk was alone with his crew, forced to make decisions on his own without anyone from Earth overriding his orders.

Wondie's world should be like that. It should be quite difficult and special for Diana to travel to her people. Their isolation should intensify and purify their philosophy, plainly showing that this kind of society is what Diana is aiming for.

If we went back to this concept, yes, we'd lose touch with many interesting characters, but Diana's role within her own book would be elevated tremendously.

[Peter Svensson]

There's a reason why Paradise Island keeps getting lost in other dimensions. It isolates Diana, forcing her to solve things on her own, keeps the supporting cast size down, and adds the poignant "oh, I have left my people behind!" element.

Of course, the darn island keeps appearing and disappearing so much that it should have frequent flier miles, but that's another story.

[CaptainCanada]

There's a reason why Paradise Island keeps getting lost in other dimensions.

The need for a "bold new direction"?

[Retro315]

If we went back to this concept, yes, we'd lose touch with many interesting characters, but Diana's role within her own book would be elevated tremendously.

Many, sure ... but the BIGGEST would still be vital. Hippolyta? Well, even if she doesn't see her daughter as much, as a queen of a realm of magic and technology, I'm sure she'd keep in touch in interesting ways.

Donna and Cassie? That's not a problem at all. They're following paths similar to Diana's, and therefore can go visit her whenever they get time off from their own gigs. Artemis? Frankly, a quiet, peaceful life of philosophy on Themyscira might be something she appreciates and respects and wants to be able to visit, but it's not something she'd stick to for long before she went out to travel and test her mettle once more.

[Deus ex Chris]

Great article, and I agree. I definitely think the Amazons have been used too often and not to great effect. My thoughts on the Amazons:
http://forums.comicbookresources.com...7&postcount=20

[Sijo]

Wow, I'm surprised there has been such support for Mr. Gray's points, I was afraid this thread would be full of "don't mess with our Amazons!" comments.

But yes, for the most part I agree with his opinions too. The Amazons, as originally seen, were an interesting concept, a society that had been isolated from the rest of the world, but, unlike so many other "Lost Worlds" in fiction, had not remained static, instead developing philosophy (and technology!) that actually put most of the rest of the world to shame. Diana felt like she was justified in coming to "teach" us her values back then.

But ever since Perez' reboot, the Amazons were reduced to being yet another tribe of primitive people to provide self-righteous warriors to exploit. Now, there have been some interesting Amazon characters, but overall, I just don't feel like the concept of Diana as a representative of the oh-so-wonderful Amazon ideals is justified anymore.

Besides, even IF the Amazons were to be brought back to greatness, they should still be ONE part of the Wonder Woman mythos, not the majority. Even Marvel's Thor spent much of his time away from his primitive warrior-people in order to act as a superhero, and even as a simple New Yorker. The Wonder Woman series needs to drift away from mythology for a while and focus on Diana's life (and drop the spy thing; that isn't helping. It's just another way of her being a warrior/hero, not a person.)

[West Mantooth]

In the early days, the facelessness of the Amazons allowed them to be the joyful, perfect philosophers that were the fire behind Diana's beliefs. With the later Bronze Age and especially the Plastic Age filled to the brim with named Amazons with distinct personalities, they were brought to the foreground of stories; therefore, they needed to be part of the Unfolding Drama.

And Drama dictates that spotlighted characters be less than perfect. Oh, how we saw that the Amazons weren't perfect! It was a real WONDER sometimes how Diana managed to come up with her personal philosophy. When the Banas arrived, obviously created to be the very opposite of the Themies, Diana's people couldn't even bestir their own supposed philosophies to embrace and teach their long-lost nieces.

Now that we're in the Dark Age we're faced with the fact that all Amazons, Bana and Themie alike, have a wide, dark streak running through their psyches.

So how did Diana get the idea to be so good? She doesn't have a foundation for her beliefs any more. I think it can all be traced back to making the Amazons--so very many of them!--players in Diana's drama.

Back in the days of the original Star Trek, the writer's guide emphasized that a great deal of the drama came because there was no way for the Enterprise to visit Earth and Starfleet Command except on the rarest of occasions. Therefore, Capt. Kirk was alone with his crew, forced to make decisions on his own without anyone from Earth overriding his orders.

Wondie's world should be like that. It should be quite difficult and special for Diana to travel to her people. Their isolation should intensify and purify their philosophy, plainly showing that this kind of society is what Diana is aiming for.

If we went back to this concept, yes, we'd lose touch with many interesting characters, but Diana's role within her own book would be elevated tremendously.

Don't think that solution works in modern storytelling anymore. The problem is that the Amazons have no guiding philosophy anyways. The Amazons are an island of women, meaning anything applied there couldn't just be slapped onto a wider societal view in the Mortal's World. Imo, it's okay to see the Amazons struggle to mantain their ideals, but they have to have some first.

I do think there should be less focus on the larger Amazon Society, but I think we've crossed the Rubicon of the Amazons as guiding force. Amazon's Attack in some form or another was basically an inevitable event based on how the Amazons have been portrayed prior to it.

[Mart]

I do think there should be less focus on the larger Amazon Society, but I think we've crossed the Rubicon of the Amazons as guiding force. Amazon's Attack in some form or another was basically an inevitable event based on how the Amazons have been portrayed prior to it.

I see what you mean, in terms of the Amazons coming into conflict with Pat's World, but the extent and nature of their response . . . eep.

[Mart]

Well, why does there need to be a sacrifice? Why can't Diana just go "Yes, I'm going to leave Paradise and go teach a whole 'nother world morals and peace and love, because that's the right thing to do." ?

Maybe it's the Catholic boy I am, I've always liked the idea, presented on occasion, that the trip to Man's World is her giving up something, even though we know Diana can gain a lot too.