Judd Winick's Outsiders vs Geoff Johns' Teen Titans

[Winghead]

Both out at the same time, crossed over a couple of times. Which did u prefer? I think this is Geoff Johns' most controversial run in that it is not as praised as other runs of his and I think its one of Winick's most praised. I really enjoyed them both but I'll give very slight edge to Geoff

[DeTroyes]

Both out at the same time, crossed over a couple of times. Which did u prefer? I think this is Geoff Johns' most controversial run in that it is not as praised as other runs of his and I think its one of Winick's most praised. I really enjoyed them both but I'll give very slight edge to Geoff

Geoff Johns Teen Titans, clearly.

It was the run that brought me back into American comics after 11 years away.

[BallsMonkey]

Geoff's Titans by a long run.

His run is my favorite run of anything in comic books. He turned Tim, Conner, Cassie, and Bart into my favorite DC characters. He took these 4 and told a great series of stories about these young heroes looking to find their place in the world and be treated with respect by their mentors. He evolved the characters, he kept the distinct voices of each one, and he made sure the 80's era Titans never overshadowed the new kids.

The battle between the Titans and the JLA in the first arc I thought was absolutely brilliant and served as the defining moment of the series.

[ScottyQuick]

Judd Winick's Outsiders, from what I've read. He wrote invented Grace Choi, who is badasswesome, and wrote pretty good Roy, and the way he wrote the Dick/Roy relationship was pretty great. The art was awesome (ChrisCross, Ivan Reis, Matthew Clark).

Geoff Johns' run on Teen Titans turned Kon, Cassie, Bart and to a lesser degree Tim from four characters who I loved and couldn't wait to read more about and got so much happiness from watching them be heroes and grow up and learn into these vapid wastes of space where I get the most joy from watching them fuck up. The battle between the Titans and the JLA is basically a good summary why I didn't like it ... Cassie's being defined by her relationship with Bart, Diana is acting HORRIFICALLY ooc, Kon is angsting and wangsting and being dull, Tim's acting like an idiot and Bart's a dull sack of bricks.

[Shellhead]

It pains me to admit, but I think that Winick's Outsiders was a little better than Johns' Teen Titans. I dropped Teen Titans after just a few issues, because Johns was killing everything fun about the Young Justice characters, while great characters from the Wolfman/Perez run stood around uselessly. Winick did his best work on Exiles over at Marvel, though in hindsight, it looks like anybody except for Claremont can write a decent issue of Exiles. Outsiders was a dim shadow of Exiles, but still had a few good moments here and there. It wasn't until after the first year that the title really took a dive and never recovered.

[True Herald]

It pains me to admit, but I think that Winick's Outsiders was a little better than Johns' Teen Titans. I dropped Teen Titans after just a few issues, because Johns was killing everything fun about the Young Justice characters, while great characters from the Wolfman/Perez run stood around uselessly. Winick did his best work on Exiles over at Marvel, though in hindsight, it looks like anybody except for Claremont can write a decent issue of Exiles. Outsiders was a dim shadow of Exiles, but still had a few good moments here and there. It wasn't until after the first year that the title really took a dive and never recovered.

You know what?? Despite my own hatred of Winick's work, I also have to go with the above. Judd might have turned in his usual poor job, but at least he wasn't Wangsting up the fun Young Justice characters while wasting Cyborg, Starfire, and Beast Boy.

[BallsMonkey]

Christ, what the hell is with all the John's Titans hate? He did not make them angsty, he didn't kill the fun. McKeever did that.

[True Herald]

Christ, what the hell is with all the John's Titans hate? He did not make them angsty, he didn't kill the fun. McKeever did that.

Johns is the one who had Impulse shot in the knee so he could become the less-interesting and less-fun Kid Flash.

Johns is the one who retconned Superboy's origin into being the scientific love child of Superman and Lex Luthor. He wrote the book so that the ONLY thing Kon could do was whine about being partly a villain; this not only has nothing to do with how Kon himself would turn out (nurture wins over "nature"), but his original origin had him being 100% cloned from a bad guy named Paul Westfield... and he quickly got over it. So what was Geoff-Superboy's problem, other than Geoff wanting to make what was "Peter Pan with superpowers" into an emo whiner??

[kalorama]

At the time I preferred Titans, but that may have been largely because I liked Mike McKone's art more than Tom Raney's. At the end of the day, neither was really great shakes. Titans was better in the storyteling department, Outsiders had a bit more fun about it. But both were weren't more than "okay" overall.

[BallsMonkey]

Johns is the one who had Impulse shot in the knee so he could become the less-interesting and less-fun Kid Flash.

Oh yes, curse Johns for making Bart smart. He's a monster for trying to take the character more serious and give him more direction that just being the goofy idiot. We should stone him for better integrating him into the Flash legacy. What a hack.

Johns is the one who retconned Superboy's origin into being the scientific love child of Superman and Lex Luthor. He wrote the book so that the ONLY thing Kon could do was whine about being partly a villain; this not only has nothing to do with how Kon himself would turn out (nurture wins over "nature"), but his original origin had him being 100% cloned from a bad guy named Paul Westfield... and he quickly got over it. So what was Geoff-Superboy's problem, other than Geoff wanting to make what was "Peter Pan with superpowers" into an emo whiner??

We obviously weren't reading the same book. Kon did NOT just whine all the time. Yes he retconned it so now he was half Supers and half Lex, and guess what, the character got more interesting. It opened the door for some good stories down the line and it added more depth to the character. I don't know why you keep saying all he did was whine. I read that whole run, he was still as cocky and rebellious as he was before. And even when he fell into the depression after "The Insiders", he quickly got over it before Infinite Crisis.

[True Herald]

Oh yes, curse Johns for making Bart smart. He's a monster for trying to take the character more serious and give him more direction that just being the goofy idiot. We should stone him for better integrating him into the Flash legacy. What a hack.

I'm glad we agree. Too many people think that Maturity Is Serious Business, you know.

We obviously weren't reading the same book. Kon did NOT just whine all the time. Yes he retconned it so now he was half Supers and half Lex, and guess what, the character got more interesting. It opened the door for some good stories down the line and it added more depth to the character.

Angst is not depth.
Suddenly connecting the character to 2 popular characters in order to prop up his popularity is not depth, either.

I don't know why you keep saying all he did was whine. I read that whole run, he was still as cocky and rebellious as he was before.

You're right; we weren't reading the same book.

And even when he fell into the depression after "The Insiders", he quickly got over it before Infinite Crisis.

You mean before his date with death?? And we all know how fun imminent death is...

[kalorama]

Angst is not depth.

Says who? Angst is an emotion. Emotional expression and experience is part of what gives characters depth.

Suddenly connecting the character to 2 popular characters in order to prop up his popularity is not depth, either.

Johns didn't "suddenly" connect Superboy to Superman. He was always connected to Superman (which is why he was called Superboy).

[True Herald]

Says who? Angst is an emotion. Emotional expression and experience is part of what gives characters depth.

No, there needs to be much more to a character than what he has in his past to whine about in the present.

Johns didn't "suddenly" connect Superboy to Superman. He was always connected to Superman (which is why he was called Superboy).

He wasn't the half-clone of Superman until Johns. Before Geoff, Superboy stood on his own as a character concept, with his own milieu and supporting cast. Now, he's just standing on Clark and Lex's shoulders. He can't even live on his own anymore like he used to; he has to live at -- surprise, surprise -- the freakin' Kent farm!

[BallsMonkey]

No, there needs to be much more to a character than what he has in his past to whine about in the present.

Like you said, we weren't reading the same character. There is more to him. Adventure Comics proved that.

He wasn't the half-clone of Superman until Johns. Before Geoff, Superboy stood on his own as a character concept, with his own milieu and supporting cast. Now, he's just standing on Clark and Lex's shoulders. He can't even live on his own anymore like he used to; he has to live at -- surprise, surprise -- the freakin' Kent farm!

And why is that a problem? Dude, that direction was pretty much inevitable. He's called Superboy for christ sakes. Why is building a stronger connection with Superman suddenly a major issue?

[True Herald]

Like you said, we weren't reading the same character. There is more to him. Adventure Comics proved that.

Not from what I saw.

And why is that a problem? Dude, that direction was pretty much inevitable.

Hardly. Superboy's long-running solo book demonstrated that he can be more than what he's been reduced to now.

He's called Superboy for christ sakes. Why is building a stronger connection with Superman suddenly a major issue?

The character was and has every right to be more than just an adjunct to Superman. Let him continue to blaze his own trail, rather than trodding the same well-worn road that Superman created.