Jim Starlin Appreciation thread

[Eumenides]

Funny you mention Abnett and Lanning. If we want to discuss repitition, we can discuss how Annihilation, Conquest, War of Kings are all the same damn story over and over. Massive empires and armies fighting each other in space. It's so military and uninspired. It has none of the trippy, introspective charm of Starlin's stories.

[adam_warlock_2099]

Funny you mention Abnett and Lanning. If we want to discuss repitition, we can discuss how Annihilation, Conquest, War of Kings are all the same damn story over and over. Massive empires and armies fighting each other in space. It's so military and uninspired. It has none of the trippy, introspective charm of Starlin's stories.

I agree, in that facet that they haven't what Starlin does. But it was nice to see Marvel at least bring out the cosmic characters, and give them to two writers that I thought did a good job with it. No, it was nothing like Starlin's ability to make you feel like your reading an LCD trip, but it did take characters that I thought for sure Marvel had forgotten and give us a good space opera. At least with Annihilation and Conquest, I never read War of Kings. I also enjoy what they are doing in Guardians of the Galaxy, at least up to where I have read, around issue #17 I believe. I hope to catch up soon.

[Make Mine Mar-Vell]

Hello, thanks for having me...Despite my age, I believe I've gained a grasp of the classic comics, especially the Marvel ones, and I am no arrogant punk.

So I give Jim Starlin and his father all the respect they deserve and much more.

However, I believe that The Death of Captain Marvel, although it was and still is a touching story about fighting something real like Cancer, was an assasination.

If you look at the work, notice that Mar-Vell's spirit was seperated from his body before the point of bodily death. Yeah, trust me, I'm Thanos.

What if he was tricked?

What was in that world? (you can reference Silver Surfer #63 and the entire Earth X trilogy for this...even the Mighty Avengers #19 recently....what if he's trying to get back from exile?)

What is the world needs Mar-Vell again?

What a story that would be.

The real one.

The psychology of that character....it's amazing how they've tried to replace him over the years.

Just food for thought.

[Eumenides]

I agree, in that facet that they haven't what Starlin does. But it was nice to see Marvel at least bring out the cosmic characters, and give them to two writers that I thought did a good job with it.

Yeah, I'm also happy that the Marvel cosmic heroes are slowly returning and managing to survive in these difficult times, even if it's at the cost of neverending crossovers. But after three Star-Wars-like stories of empires and underdogs and royal marriages and huge armies, it'd be fun to see the more mystical side of Marvel's cosmic universe again. I just miss the wonders of the cosmic cubes, parallel realities, counter-earths, infinity gems and mysterious entities like the Celestials and the In-Betweener

[DoctorDoom]

I loved the Infinity Gauntlet.

It was because of that I got went back and got anything with Thanos in it.

[DoctorDoom]

What is the world needs Mar-Vell again?

What a story that would be.

The real one.

The psychology of that character....it's amazing how they've tried to replace him over the years.

Just food for thought.

So... what does this have to do with appreciating Starlin?

[Make Mine Mar-Vell]

Well, because Jim Starlin made his career on Captain Marvel, (not just the death...I mean #25-34, including the famous metamorphisis issue #29, which took off where Roy Thomas and Gil Kane's brilliant yet underappreciated work had started and took it to a whole new level... and for all purists out there, the great Starlin did a bit of #36 as well...).

He is the "grim reaper" of comics, when you want someone dead you call him in.

Why is this?

Captain Marvel.

Although, remember after Iron Man #55, Jim got his BIG break, I mean the BIG one, with Mar-Vell, and I am familiar with his family history as well. God bless. My brother is dead to, a U.S. Marine. God Bless you Mr. Starlin, but let it go, man and talk to these people, and break the rule.

It could be the thing that breaks you out of your old man's creative funk, sir, with due respect.

The tragedy is that it's whole lifetime later, and this Mar-Vell character could still do something, yet I feel that Starlin would be upset by this because it might undermine what he makes his living off of now, which is okay with me, he's earned it, but there's a new generation that Mar-Vell could just well...use your imagination.

Return to Marvel or at least let go of whatever creative ownership you took on with this character in the late 1970's.

Yeesh.

Of course, Jim Starlin is great. So's Al Davis (see- Oakland Raiders).

[Make Mine Mar-Vell]

Well, because Jim Starlin made his career on Captain Marvel, (not just the death...I mean #25-34, including the famous metamorphisis issue #29, which took off where Roy Thomas and Gil Kane's brilliant yet underappreciated work had started and took it to a whole new level... and for all purists out there, the great Starlin did a bit of #36 as well...).

He is the "grim reaper" of comics, when you want someone dead you call him in.

Why is this?

Captain Marvel.

The tragedy is that it's whole lifetime later, and this Mar-Vell character could still do something, yet I feel that Starlin would be upset by this because it might undermine what he makes his living off of now, which is okay with me, he's earned it, but there's a new generation that Mar-Vell could just well...use your imagination.

We know that death exists. The story has been told.

What is Starlin's got enough left in the tank to give his okay on bringing back the Mar-Vell in what could be the definitive moment of his career?

[berk]

Yeah, I'm also happy that the Marvel cosmic heroes are slowly returning and managing to survive in these difficult times, even if it's at the cost of neverending crossovers. But after three Star-Wars-like stories of empires and underdogs and royal marriages and huge armies, it'd be fun to see the more mystical side of Marvel's cosmic universe again. I just miss the wonders of the cosmic cubes, parallel realities, counter-earths, infinity gems and mysterious entities like the Celestials and the In-Betweener

Well, I think the problem there is that you can't really do mystery and wonder in the Marvel Universe, because all the characters and ideas that were meant to evoke those feelings have been over-explained and generally mis-used that they've ended up feeling totally ordinary and mundane. Take the Celestials, for example: whenever anyone decides to put them into a story, 9 times out of 10 it's to boost their current protagonist by having them "defeat" a Celestial, or give them a good talking to, or something equally nonsensical.

Besides, there is no mystery in the MU, because everything's been handbooked and pigeonholed to death. Every "cosmic" entity has his slot on the totem pole, two notches above this guy, one below this other guy, blah, blah, blah. Hard to generate any sense of mystery or wonder in that kind of set-up.

I do not want to see the Celestials, or anything else to do with Kirby's Eternals, appear in the MU ever again. They don't work there for all kinds of reasons, the above mentioned being only one of many.

In spite of all that, like other readers, I do think it's a good thing that some of these characters - e.g. Mantis, Warlock, Starhawk, Moondragon, the Inhumans - are being revived. But like a lot of those readers, I don't see much of interest happening so far. Lots of bombast, lots of explosions, lots of "greatest threats the universe has ever faced", lots of heroes frantically running around, lots of villainous villains villainously ranting about how powerful they are ... but no soul, no spark of a personal creative vision, just a sort of routine that plays itself over and over with small variations.

The thing is though, you can't just turn a switch and say, "OK, enough Star Wars, now I'm gonna do one of those weird, quirky, visionary stories like Kirby and Starlin used to do." It's either there or it isn't. I don't think the current writers, or anyone else at Marvel I can think of right now, have that kind of personal vision, or feel the need to express it in comic-book form. At least they haven't shown it so far.

BTW, I can't agree with those who think Starlin's Death of the New Gods was any good at all, let alone "the best since Kirby". I thought it a very poor performance. The best I could say is that it wasn't quite as bad as his Cosmic Odyssey, from years ago, and that is about the faintest praise I can imagine. He's never had a good feel for the concept, or even, I suspect, much liking for it, and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near it. Not that anyone else since Kirby has done much better, mind you. Same goes for the Eternals.

[DonEMC]

Well, because Jim Starlin made his career on Captain Marvel, (not just the death...I mean #25-34, including the famous metamorphisis issue #29, which took off where Roy Thomas and Gil Kane's brilliant yet underappreciated work had started and took it to a whole new level... and for all purists out there, the great Starlin did a bit of #36 as well...).

He is the "grim reaper" of comics, when you want someone dead you call him in.

Why is this?

Captain Marvel.

The tragedy is that it's whole lifetime later, and this Mar-Vell character could still do something, yet I feel that Starlin would be upset by this because it might undermine what he makes his living off of now, which is okay with me, he's earned it, but there's a new generation that Mar-Vell could just well...use your imagination.

We know that death exists. The story has been told.

What is Starlin's got enough left in the tank to give his okay on bringing back the Mar-Vell in what could be the definitive moment of his career?

I really don't think Jim Starlin has a contract that says Captain Marvel can never be brought back to life. I think that's just Marvel respecting a good story (and not having yet found a way to bring him back to life in a way that makes money like bringing Bucky back did).

[benday-dot]

Hello, thanks for having me...Despite my age, I believe I've gained a grasp of the classic comics, especially the Marvel ones, and I am no arrogant punk.

So I give Jim Starlin and his father all the respect they deserve and much more.

Jim Starlin's father? Huh?

[benday-dot]

I agree, in that facet that they haven't what Starlin does. But it was nice to see Marvel at least bring out the cosmic characters, and give them to two writers that I thought did a good job with it. No, it was nothing like Starlin's ability to make you feel like your reading an LCD trip, but it did take characters that I thought for sure Marvel had forgotten and give us a good space opera. At least with Annihilation and Conquest, I never read War of Kings. I also enjoy what they are doing in Guardians of the Galaxy, at least up to where I have read, around issue #17 I believe. I hope to catch up soon.

Agreed, though likely you mean an LSD trip rather than the sort you gain from sitting slack-jawed in the grip of your new 42" tv.

[adam_warlock_2099]

Yeah, I'm also happy that the Marvel cosmic heroes are slowly returning and managing to survive in these difficult times, even if it's at the cost of neverending crossovers. But after three Star-Wars-like stories of empires and underdogs and royal marriages and huge armies, it'd be fun to see the more mystical side of Marvel's cosmic universe again. I just miss the wonders of the cosmic cubes, parallel realities, counter-earths, infinity gems and mysterious entities like the Celestials and the In-Betweener :frown:

Agreed. While Annihilation and Conquest (and by extension even the Drax mini that recreated the image is know in now) and GotG got me interested in Nova, who never had interested me before, and brought back Warlock, Moondragon, Gamora, etc (which makes me giggle like a schoolgirl) these elements are lacking. I do like that the Universal Church is playing a role in GotG and what has been shown so far up to what I have read (I am a few months behind) they don't have the "awe" that some of those objects and characters brought to those old cosmic stories.

Well, I think the problem there is that you can't really do mystery and wonder in the Marvel Universe, because all the characters and ideas that were meant to evoke those feelings have been over-explained and generally mis-used that they've ended up feeling totally ordinary and mundane. Take the Celestials, for example: whenever anyone decides to put them into a story, 9 times out of 10 it's to boost their current protagonist by having them "defeat" a Celestial, or give them a good talking to, or something equally nonsensical.

Besides, there is no mystery in the MU, because everything's been handbooked and pigeonholed to death. Every "cosmic" entity has his slot on the totem pole, two notches above this guy, one below this other guy, blah, blah, blah. Hard to generate any sense of mystery or wonder in that kind of set-up.

I would go so far as to say that is modern comics in general, at least from DC and Marvel. GotG is the extent of my new comic purchases, as I've said before I months behind on that, and really am not sure why as much as I enjoyed what I have read, that I don't miss it.

I do not want to see the Celestials, or anything else to do with Kirby's Eternals, appear in the MU ever again. They don't work there for all kinds of reasons, the above mentioned being only one of many.

In spite of all that, like other readers, I do think it's a good thing that some of these characters - e.g. Mantis, Warlock, Starhawk, Moondragon, the Inhumans - are being revived. But like a lot of those readers, I don't see much of interest happening so far. Lots of bombast, lots of explosions, lots of "greatest threats the universe has ever faced", lots of heroes frantically running around, lots of villainous villains villainously ranting about how powerful they are ... but no soul, no spark of a personal creative vision, just a sort of routine that plays itself over and over with small variations.

The thing is though, you can't just turn a switch and say, "OK, enough Star Wars, now I'm gonna do one of those weird, quirky, visionary stories like Kirby and Starlin used to do." It's either there or it isn't. I don't think the current writers, or anyone else at Marvel I can think of right now, have that kind of personal vision, or feel the need to express it in comic-book form. At least they haven't shown it so far.

This I agree with. Abnett and Lanning have done well handling the cosmic characters that they have used so far, but it's still nothing of what Kirby and Starlin had done.

BTW, I can't agree with those who think Starlin's Death of the New Gods was any good at all, let alone "the best since Kirby". I thought it a very poor performance. The best I could say is that it wasn't quite as bad as his Cosmic Odyssey, from years ago, and that is about the faintest praise I can imagine. He's never had a good feel for the concept, or even, I suspect, much liking for it, and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near it. Not that anyone else since Kirby has done much better, mind you. Same goes for the Eternals.

Well, I may be in the minority, as I enjoyed Kirby's New Gods, but it's just a good story to me. I don't think that it is one the masterpiece works of comics. So for me, Death of the New Gods wasn't that drastically worse than Kirby's original work.

And I may be wrong, but I believe I remember reading that DC asked Starlin to kill all the New Gods, it wasn't something that went out of his way to do or volunteered to do. So he may not have had his heart in the work. It may have just been a story he did to pay the bills.

Agreed, though likely you mean an LSD trip rather than the sort you gain from sitting slack-jawed in the grip of your new 42" tv.

LOL Yeah LSD. Though I await Christmas, with my 360 and new LCD TV to agree with you on your description of such an effect.

[Eumenides]

Well, I think the problem there is that you can't really do mystery and wonder in the Marvel Universe, because all the characters and ideas that were meant to evoke those feelings have been over-explained and generally mis-used that they've ended up feeling totally ordinary and mundane. Take the Celestials, for example: whenever anyone decides to put them into a story, 9 times out of 10 it's to boost their current protagonist by having them "defeat" a Celestial, or give them a good talking to, or something equally nonsensical.

Besides, there is no mystery in the MU, because everything's been handbooked and pigeonholed to death. Every "cosmic" entity has his slot on the totem pole, two notches above this guy, one below this other guy, blah, blah, blah. Hard to generate any sense of mystery or wonder in that kind of set-up.

Cosmic stories without mystery and wonder are pointless and no fun

For me there's a simple solution, which is adding new cosmic entities, new villains, new races to the Marvel Universe. That's one of the reasons that made Starlin's stories were fresh, new characters: Thanos, Magus, Eon, the Universal Church of Truth, Gamora, Pip, Drax, Mentor, Starfox, Chronos.

I don't understand why it's so rare nowadays to mix some new faces with established characters.

[icctrombone]

Interesting pairing Of Starlin and PC Russell in Detective #482