Avengers by Brian Michael Bendis: What is your verdict?

[lobsterj]

Why is it wrong for a writer to use and push a character they happen to like? How exactly is that bad writing?

Its not, but it can be annoying when a writer takes a popular title that has a certain minimum of guaranteed sales and shoves his favorites in there beyond what is reasonable. I mean, sure put Luke Cage on the Avengers, he makes a good Avenger. But we are at the point where many many pages are devoted to Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, their marriage, their baby, their fricking nanny! If people really wanted to read about this relationship Alias would still be published.

[Nomads1]

Hmm, well you are close to winning me over, and reorganizing your persona into the "personal preference" section of fans.

But what are your thought on the folks that dislike everything Fraction has written, similar to the way you dislike Bendis? ( these are real people, check the internets and you will find them.)

Of course people have personal preferences. Of course I believe that there are people who like Bendis. Taste is subjective. Everyone will have works, and professionals, that they like and dislike (when it comes to professionals, I'm talking about workload here, not personal likes or dislikes. I refuse to go there, seeing as I've never met them, and even so, that's never going to be the point). What sticks my craw here is the radical opinion. From both sides. I know that you've made an arguement that people always like to bring down guys that are at the top. The same can be said of the other way around. There are those that will only follow or sing the praises of those that are on the top. (One is psycologically explained by envy,while the other is a manifestation of insecurity, a need not to be left out.) Strathcona himself has many times claimed that he hasn't read anything other then Avengers from Bendis. That is what he is basing his opinion on. In that level, Bendis fails to impress him. Is he being radical? I don't think so. Whatever else Bendis has written is not his cup of tea. He is not forced to go read something he has no interrest in just to confirm that he doesn't like Bendis' writing in something that he does like.
While taste is subjective, people can still be objective while expressing their opinions. Rational and logical arguements can prevail, even when arguing about something that logic fails to explain.
On the subject of this discussion here. Bendis Avengers works doesn't do it for me. Have read other things by him, most specifically the beggining of his USM run and parts of Daredevil. Neither characters are among my favorites, but i liked what I read. As such, don't consider Bendis a hack, nor do I consider him the greatest thing since the invention of sliced bread. He actually falls below the radar for me as a writer. My biggest beef with him is that he is writing my favorite team in a way that I find awful. That's it. No effect of the tides for me.
Writers that I absolutely adore: Ostrander (although, I could never force myself to read his Grimjack, just not my cup of tea, and I don't like the Spectre, só I never read great part of his run - even though, what little I have, was spectacular). PAD (didn't like his Supergirl). Stern (can't remember anything of him that I didn't like, but I'm sure there is something).
On the other hand:
Dislike: Englehart (his dialogue, and most of his concepts, kills anything for me, but was able to read and enjoy his Avengers and WCA run.), Gerad Jones (IMHO a terrible writer, however, I liked his Elongated Man mini-series - although Parobecks art may have a hand at that, and his JLE with Giffen was pretty good), Winnick (too prechy and heavy handed in his writing. Always goes for the shock value. However, although not my favorite writer of the series, enjoyed some of his early Exiles).
See, it is possible to find things you don't like on the work of someone you like, as well as things you like in the work of professionals you don't apppreciate.

Peace

PS: Sorry for butting in.

[XPac]

Its not, but it can be annoying when a writer takes a popular title that has a certain minimum of guaranteed sales and shoves his favorites in there beyond what is reasonable. I mean, sure put Luke Cage on the Avengers, he makes a good Avenger. But we are at the point where many many pages are devoted to Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, their marriage, their baby, their fricking nanny! If people really wanted to read about this relationship Alias would still be published.

If the book does okay in sales, I think we can assume a descent amount of readers are at least okay reading about Luke and Jessica every once in a while.

[Johnny Stooge]

You wouldn't think they're best friends, going by the way Bendis completely ignores Fraction's characterisation of Tony Stark.

Invincible Iron Man Tony Stark is nothing like Avengers Tony Stark.

I know. It frustrated me the most around Dark Reign when Tony was deleting his mind then hit reset and Bendis kept writing him the same as ever. I don't know how Bendis see's it, but I'm quite a different person to how I was two years ago.

[XPac]

I know. It frustrated me the most around Dark Reign when Tony was deleting his mind then hit reset and Bendis kept writing him the same as ever. I don't know how Bendis see's it, but I'm quite a different person to how I was two years ago.

The funny thing is, Stark essentially IS the same person he was a few years ago precisely because his brain WAS reset.

The Stark we have now is actually the Stark before Fraction wrote the book, with all the Civil War and Dark Reign stuff erased.

[Johnny Stooge]

The funny thing is, Stark essentially IS the same person he was a few years ago precisely because his brain WAS reset.

The Stark we have now is actually the Stark before Fraction wrote the book, with all the Civil War and Dark Reign stuff erased.

I know.

What I meant was that despite the reset, Bendis continued to write Tony the same as he always did. There was no real characterisational change.

[Lord Bravery]

Exactly. Bendis writes Stark as the stereotypical, obnoxious douche bag playboy, but who has a heart of gold. When really, Stark has developed beyond that in his own series. He's much more humble and down to earth now. He's still got that charming arrogance about him, but nothing like he used to.

Bendis just ignores all that.

[XPac]

Exactly. Bendis writes Stark as the stereotypical, obnoxious douche bag playboy, but who has a heart of gold. When really, Stark has developed beyond that in his own series. He's much more humble and down to earth now. He's still got that charming arrogance about him, but nothing like he used to.

Bendis just ignores all that.

So in other words, Bendis is basically writing the character the way he's been written for decades. And the way he will PROBABLY be written decades from now.

[Predabot]

Oi! Nomad, you're not strath'... :P

Strathcona himself has many times claimed that he hasn't read anything other then Avengers from Bendis. That is what he is basing his opinion on. In that level, Bendis fails to impress him. Is he being radical? I don't think so. Whatever else Bendis has written is not his cup of tea. He is not forced to go read something he has no interrest in just to confirm that he doesn't like Bendis' writing in something that he does like.

I totally missed the parts where Strathcona explained that he's never read anything by Bendis other than Avengers?? Certainly an interesting bit of info...

But then I'm not sure why he sought out Gillen's other works, when he disliked him on Generation Hope, however...?

( I will have to agree that this is probably Gillen's weakest book. JiM is excellent in comparison.)

PS: Sorry for butting in.

All right... I forgive you. ;)

I think I shall make a new thread, nominations for new Avengers-writer, and then make a poll of it. But then the question comes down to criteria, and the criteria IMHO, is of course that the new writer should be of equal star-status to Bendis, as well as similar sales, or at the very least close to it.

But then people will contest this... and then it'll go nowhere.

[Alan2099]

Its not, but it can be annoying when a writer takes a popular title that has a certain minimum of guaranteed sales and shoves his favorites in there beyond what is reasonable. I mean, sure put Luke Cage on the Avengers, he makes a good Avenger. But we are at the point where many many pages are devoted to Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, their marriage, their baby, their fricking nanny! If people really wanted to read about this relationship Alias would still be published.

I think my favorite example of this was when Bendis spent more time having Jessica and Cage talk about what superhero name she should use in one issue than he spent letting them fight an out of control Doombot.

[Lord Bravery]

Why is it wrong for a writer to use and push a character they happen to like? How exactly is that bad writing?

Because it leads to other characters being overshadowed and relegated to scenery. Which is like, the biggest no-no on a team book. You know you're dealing with a crap team book when half of the characters are standing around doing nothing.

Maybe i should rephrase then. No writer should show favouritism towards a certain character whilst writing a team book.

But even then, I don't like blatant favouritism in any form. Team book or solo book. If it's obvious you are intentionally "bigging a character up" it shows a lack of creativity, in that the writer can't make the character worthwhile without resorting to hammering the fact that a certain character is awesome into the reader. It takes me out of the story.

[Alan2099]

I'm talking about Avengers Disassembled? Nah, that's from a series of articles talking about the evolution of the Justice League

I thought you were talking about Giant Sized X-men or possibly the New Fantastic Four.

[Lord Bravery]

So in other words, Bendis is basically writing the character the way he's been written for decades. And the way he will PROBABLY be written decades from now.

Or in other words; Bendis has completely ignored the character development and growth that Matt Fraction, his so called best friend, has implemented.

"Oh hey Matt! You're my friend and all, but i don't like the development you've given Stark. I mean, Tony Stark, grow as a character? GTFO! I'm gonna ignore what you did with the character!"

[Nomads1]

I thought you were talking about Giant Sized X-men or possibly the New Fantastic Four.

They didn't blow up the X-Men's headquarters in Giant-sized X-Men.
Not sure which new FF you're talking about, but they did blow up the Baxter Building a couple of times.

Peace

[XPac]

Or in other words; Bendis has completely ignored the character development and growth that Matt Fraction, his so called best friend, has implemented.

Or Fraction is ignoring everyone else. Take your pick.

Either way, I'll bet money the classic version of Stark (which Bendis and pretty much everyone else uses) is the one that will stick around.

But if you need an in-story explanation... Stark is acting like his old self around others, because that's how he's always acted around them. In his private moments, you can say he's just not feeling like his old self because of what's been happening to him.

But sooner or later he'll get over it, explaining why he'll likely go back to being the same Stark we've had for decades.