Avengers by Brian Michael Bendis: What is your verdict?

[TheDonAbides]

There's a general problem that I notice with comics where stuff "just happens" because it's convenient and the characters deal with it while it's fresh and then forget it and move on. The reason this is a problem is that comics goes on forever and after a while stuff just happening becomes boring and contrived, and the reader forms attachments to the characters and wants to see them act like real people. Real people remember things, they don't get over things easily.

So when every writer acts like Bendis and just does his thing, then moves on, the result is a disjointed and childish story where people just go around like their brains are reset every few months. It fails to take advantage of the only thing comics as a medium has going for it vs manga and TV... that it's very long-lived and shared. Having disjointed and random occurrences takes away from that.

So you're the type of person who reads the thing and forgets it. Many comic book readers aren't, and the genre is sort of designed for them. It's like writing for TV as if you were a book author-- it attracts a certain crowd, but it drives away the crowd that's actually attracted to the medium.

The funny thing is Bendis actually had Hawkeye comment on this exact subject during Disassembled. Hawkeye says (about Jack of Hearts) something like "he died and we just left him there and now he's back to kick our asses-- why do we always bounce from one thing to the next and never go back and clean up our messes?"

Thanks for ever so slightly insulting me, it was fun. I read and remember, but I don't read every title Marvel publishes. I read, let's say, Avengers, but not H&M, Avengers Academy, or whatever the other was.

You missed the point entirely, while actually making it for me. It's a shared universe. One person writes the big story, everyone else reacts. That's how it goes. That's how it always goes. It happens in the big books, and the real aftermath is dealt with in smaller books while the big book moves on to the next big story. I guess I'm some kind of noob, or whatever the hell you internet minorities call it, even after 30 years.

Feel free to call me names or criticize my reading habits or whatever it is you need to do to try and invalidate my opinion and the opinion of Marvel's editorial department. Bendis ain't going anywhere unles he wants to.

Peace, love, and for being a mite condescending, none a that good shit for you.

[Swie]

Thanks for ever so slightly insulting me, it was fun. I read and remember, but I don't read every title Marvel publishes. I read, let's say, Avengers, but not H&M, Avengers Academy, or whatever the other was.

You missed the point entirely, while actually making it for me. It's a shared universe. One person writes the big story, everyone else reacts. That's how it goes. That's how it always goes. It happens in the big books, and the real aftermath is dealt with in smaller books while the big book moves on to the next big story. I guess I'm some kind of noob, or whatever the hell you internet minorities call it, even after 30 years.

Feel free to call me names or criticize my reading habits or whatever it is you need to do to try and invalidate my opinion and the opinion of Marvel's editorial department. Bendis ain't going anywhere unles he wants to.

Peace, love, and for being a mite condescending, none a that good shit for you.

Wow, look at that venom! And considering I went out of my way to be careful with my wording about us being different kinds of readers, which is not a value judgment or an insult. If you feel like a noob, please don't feel free to read insinuations into my post that aren't there.

So you don't read anything but the one book... but I think that's kind of the point. Some readers don't consider the story to be complete without the reaction and it's frustrating when a writer doesn't agree and you have to wait and hope and shell out some more money for someone else to deal with something you consider to be a part of the original story that was forgotten.

[TheDonAbides]

Wow, look at that venom! And considering I went out of my way to be careful with my wording about us being different kinds of readers, which is not a value judgment or an insult. If you feel like a noob, please don't feel free to read insinuations into my post that aren't there.

So you don't read anything but the one book... but I think that's kind of the point. Some readers don't consider the story to be complete without the reaction and it's frustrating when a writer doesn't agree and you have to wait and hope and shell out some more money for someone else to deal with something you consider to be a part of the original story that was forgotten.

But a big action blaster book is about the big action blasters! I don't feel, this is my opinion, that it should contain those character moments. I read Avengers for big blasty action. It goes for JLA, too. Clark Kent's personal life belongs in his titles. Your mileage may vary, but that's life.

It was condescending and most people, myself including, don't notice it happening. It sounded vitriolic, so I responded as best I could without being too over the top.

You can have some of that good shit now.

[Lord Bravery]

Why can't you have a big action blaster book WITH character moments?

See Rick Remender's Uncanny X-Force for a great blend of insane action, intelligent thought provoking plots and interesting character interactions.

[Corto]

It fails to take advantage of the only thing comics as a medium has going for it vs manga and TV...

Comics and manga are the same thing.

[Goggindowner]

But a big action blaster book is about the big action blasters! I don't feel, this is my opinion, that it should contain those character moments. I read Avengers for big blasty action. It goes for JLA, too. Clark Kent's personal life belongs in his titles. Your mileage may vary, but that's life.

It was condescending and most people, myself including, don't notice it happening. It sounded vitriolic, so I responded as best I could without being too over the top.

You can have some of that good shit now.

I really just have to totally disagree with you on your primary point in this post. See, I have always, in my 20 years of reading comics (not as long as you), enjoyed the books about a team that is totally self contained. I think that is one of the major reasons I USED to be so drawn to X-Men books over Avengers books. In X-Men, the team IS the story. The "blasty action" and the character drama work hand in hand to create what used to be the greatest franchise in comic book history. Just relying on the action, and letting the fall out go into the character books, is just lazy. Now, don't get me wrong, I am reading and enjoying Avengers and New Avengers, but not nearly as much as I would if there was more interaction and character development between the team members, and not just hitting and punching. I feel like New Avengers is the better book, because it has a LOT more character.

A perfect example of the problem of what you are talking about goes back to Grant Morrison's run on JLA, when they relaunched the title in the 90's. It starts off with Superman in his classic red and blue duds, then suddenly BAM, he is wearing blue and black, there is energy coming out of his eyes, and those of us who were only reading JLA got NOTHING to explain WHY this change had occurred. That story happened in the Superman books. Which I wasn't reading, thus not privileged with the knowledge of why he had changed. Instead of going and buying Superman, I just stopped reading JLA.

[Goggindowner]

Comics and manga are the same thing.

You are totally wrong, at least in reference to what he is talking about. American comics are infinite forms of story telling. They never have an end in sight. There are changes in creative teams, directions, and plots end, but the book keeps going.

In manga, there is always an end game in mind when the book is created. It is finite story telling. And in almost every case, one creator, or creative team, works on the book from start to finish, and when the story is done, the book is done. There might be sequels or spin offs, but the original book ends.

[PanzerMega]

I kinda screwed that post up.

[PanzerMega]

A perfect example of the problem of what you are talking about goes back to Grant Morrison's run on JLA, when they relaunched the title in the 90's. It starts off with Superman in his classic red and blue duds, then suddenly BAM, he is wearing blue and black, there is energy coming out of his eyes, and those of us who were only reading JLA got NOTHING to explain WHY this change had occurred. That story happened in the Superman books. Which I wasn't reading, thus not privileged with the knowledge of why he had changed. Instead of going and buying Superman, I just stopped reading JLA.

You stopped reading a book because something happened in another book? Would it have been better for 15-20 other books to haphazardly react to whatever was going on in JLA? I think the idea was for people to read JLA, dig characters, and then follow them in their own books if they were curious.

Stuff like that happens all the time in comics. It would be like giving up Amazing Spider-Man because he gained a black costume in Secret Wars.

[Goggindowner]

You stopped reading a book because something happened in another book? Would it have been better for 15-20 other books to haphazardly react to whatever was going on in JLA? I think the idea was for people to read JLA, dig characters, and then follow them in their own books if they were curious.

Stuff like that happens all the time in comics. It would be like giving up Amazing Spider-Man because he gained a black costume in Secret Wars.

I actually do read very few things, and stuff like this takes me out of stories pretty quickly. For me, a book has to either be very well put together, or just really fun. I find the current Avengers titles really fun to read. BUT, I haven't read an Avengers book since Disassembled, so it is sort of fresh for me. I can see where I would be burned out after six or seven years of this, and it most likely won't take much to provoke me to drop the books once I've had my fun.

[Corto]

You are totally wrong, at least in reference to what he is talking about. American comics are infinite forms of story telling. They never have an end in sight. There are changes in creative teams, directions, and plots end, but the book keeps going.

In manga, there is always an end game in mind when the book is created. It is finite story telling. And in almost every case, one creator, or creative team, works on the book from start to finish, and when the story is done, the book is done. There might be sequels or spin offs, but the original book ends.

No, I believe I'm right. He was saying that comics and manga are two different mediums, which simply isn't true. They're both parts of the same sequential art form.

Also, when you talk about American comics you only refer to comics published by Marvel or DC, which is pretty narrow and ignores the rest of the American comic book scene.

What about stuff like Scott Pilgrim, Cerebus, Queen and Country, Bone, The Boys, Vertigo titles like Sandman, Preacher and Transmetropolitan? You can't just ignore that.

[Goggindowner]

No, I believe I'm right. He was saying that comics and manga are two different mediums, which simply isn't true. They're both parts of the same sequential art form.

Also, when you talk about American comics you only refer to comics published by Marvel or DC, which is pretty narrow and ignores the rest of the American comic book scene.

What about stuff like Scott Pilgrim, Cerebus, Queen and Country, Bone, The Boys, Vertigo titles like Sandman, Preacher and Transmetropolitan? You can't just ignore that.

I will concede the point you are making. You're right, independent American comics DO follow the same trend as manga.

My point was that whoever it was who said the original thing that started this was referencing ongoing, infinite comic story telling, and when it comes to those types of books (which make up a HUGE majority of monthly sales) you can't approach them the same way you would manga.

And really, Cerebus is so long and involved, I think it falls somewhere between the two.

[Nomads1]

There's a general problem that I notice with comics where stuff "just happens" because it's convenient and the characters deal with it while it's fresh and then forget it. The reason this is a problem is that comics goes on forever and after a while stuff just happening becomes boring and contrived, and the reader forms attachments to the characters and wants to see them act like real people. Real people remember things, they don't get over things easily.

So when every writer acts like Bendis and just does his thing, then moves on, the result is a disjointed and childish story where characters have their brains reset every few months. It fails to take advantage of the only thing comics as a medium has going for it vs manga and TV... that it's very long-lived and shared. Having disjointed and random occurrences takes away from that.

So you're the type of person who reads the thing and forgets it. Many comic book readers aren't, and the genre is sort of designed for them. It's like writing for TV as if you were a book author-- it attracts a certain crowd, but it drives away the crowd that's actually attracted to the medium.

The funny thing is Bendis actually had Hawkeye comment on this exact subject during Disassembled. Hawkeye says (about Jack of Hearts) something like "he died and we just left him there and now he's back to kick our asses-- why do we always bounce from one thing to the next and never go back and clean up our messes?"

Congratulations. Excelent post.

Peace

[Petes12]

A perfect example of the problem of what you are talking about goes back to Grant Morrison's run on JLA, when they relaunched the title in the 90's. It starts off with Superman in his classic red and blue duds, then suddenly BAM, he is wearing blue and black, there is energy coming out of his eyes, and those of us who were only reading JLA got NOTHING to explain WHY this change had occurred.

It would've been terrible writing if he'd stopped the book to explain what was going on with superman. I only read his JLA run like a year ago and it didn't bother me at all, it was just like "oh, ok, superman got a stupid makeover in his own book". Easy to understand and move on from.

[Petes12]

Let me ask the Bendis fans, do you deny the fact that Bendis when it comes down to execution in story he needs other writers to clear his mess. Examples, Gage explaining the symbiote satellite in Spider-man/Fantastic Four, Avengers Initiative redeeming Tigra, Heinberg redeeming Scarlet Witch in Avengers Academy, Jim McCann explaining the motivation of WHY Hawkeye wears the Ronin outfit in New Avengers Reunion. Because lets be honest its pretty lazy when you need other writers to fix your problems.

I never understood why Tigra needed to be redeemed. She was the victim of an attack and this is somehow a flawed way of writing her?

Nor do I see why he needed to justify Hawkeye switching costumes explicitly, when it was already implicit that he was going through an ordeal after the scarlet witch stuff. Maybe you like comics that stop dead for 5 pages to explain everything about Korvac's origin and motivations and why that matters to the main characters, but I think that's another form of incredibly lazy writing itself.

There's a general problem that I notice with comics where stuff "just happens" because it's convenient and the characters deal with it while it's fresh and then forget it. The reason this is a problem is that comics goes on forever and after a while stuff just happening becomes boring and contrived, and the reader forms attachments to the characters and wants to see them act like real people. Real people remember things, they don't get over things easily.

So when every writer acts like Bendis and just does his thing, then moves on, the result is a disjointed and childish story where characters have their brains reset every few months. It fails to take advantage of the only thing comics as a medium has going for it vs manga and TV... that it's very long-lived and shared. Having disjointed and random occurrences takes away from that.

So you're the type of person who reads the thing and forgets it. Many comic book readers aren't, and the genre is sort of designed for them. It's like writing for TV as if you were a book author-- it attracts a certain crowd, but it drives away the crowd that's actually attracted to the medium.

The funny thing is Bendis actually had Hawkeye comment on this exact subject during Disassembled. Hawkeye says (about Jack of Hearts) something like "he died and we just left him there and now he's back to kick our asses-- why do we always bounce from one thing to the next and never go back and clean up our messes?"

You can't really expect comic writers to write only for people who have been reading Avengers for 20 years or whatever either.