Avengers by Brian Michael Bendis: What is your verdict?

[Nomads1]

But the point is, for some people, part of the fun of collecting comics is having a complete run (the Pokemon, gotta have 'em all mentality). So, some readers are willing to suffer through bad writing in order to have their fun of a full run. It's not really that hard a thing to understand. Just look at sports fans that support their teams after years and years of losing seasons (I am thinking of the Toronto Maple Leafs specifically here). Same mentality.

Good Point.

Peace

[comicfan411]

i dont like it. bendis is a great writer, and his early run was fantastic, but i am getting sick of it. his alias, usm, and daredevil are fantastic though.

[cliffhanger]

[QUOTE=Mikey Brown;12825753]For you all that are stuck on the sales stuff, Dan Slott posted a long, but insightful post about his run on Amazing Spider-Man, but you could easily replace Spider-Man with the Avengers, Ultimate titles, X-Titles or whatever. In fact I've seen these exact same argument everywhere and it's ONLY when people do not like the current direction. Here:


Now really, you could substitute Spider-Man with the Avengers or whatever thread people try to argue this. In fact there's posts almost identical to this in this very thread.



But even with this awesome post, I still expect people to continually ignore this. That's just how the internet works. But what's funny is that when people do this, it almost always shows the exact OPPOSITE of what they were trying to prove.[/QUOTE/{

Really I think your reaching. Direct Market sales are the best way to judge whether a comic is doing well and the status of it. I doubt you would say the Diamond system was faulty if Avengers was the no. 1 seller every month. And really how can it be that faulty they are the ONLY comic distributor out there. lol. Who's really gonna be able to show better how a book is selling than the distributor? Subscriptions and the digital market are not the bulk of business being done. I doubt they even make up 20% of the market.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

I also want to note that it's not only the detractors using numbers here.

[mistergoodman]

Really I think your reaching. Direct Market sales are the best way to judge whether a comic is doing well and the status of it. I doubt you would say the Diamond system was faulty if Avengers was the no. 1 seller every month. And really how can it be that faulty they are the ONLY comic distributor out there. lol. Who's really gonna be able to show better how a book is selling than the distributor? Subscriptions and the digital market are not the bulk of business being done. I doubt they even make up 20% of the market.

The rankings are an accurate measure of the direct market, though the sales figures sometimes reported are inaccurate estimates that people guess based on Diamond's official rankings. According to Diamond (who would know) Avengers was Marvel's best selling book last month in the direct market, coming in only behind Green Lantern and Brightest Day. However, some comics featuring the better known heroes do receive additional distribution outside of Diamond and the direct market (at bookstores, news stands and the like). Given that the Avengers has some of Marvel's most popular heroes, it likely does well in other markets as well.

All this means is that Marvel isn't likely to fix what, from a business standpoint, isn't broken.

[Mikey Brown]

Again... I specifically said this is not a Bendis thing... this a big selling, long running comic book thing.

Damn, you are going to serious lengths to ignore real arguments just because you like Bendis. Just say you like him and move on... seriously, we are entitle to our opinion just as much as you are.

He's certainly not my favorite but, yeah, I enjoy his stuff. The thing is, a lot on here are trying to somehow prove their opinion is the right one. I haven't really been following your posts so I don't know if you were doing this or not. But nice opposite thing ya did there.

[Mikey Brown]

Really I think your reaching. Direct Market sales are the best way to judge whether a comic is doing well and the status of it. I doubt you would say the Diamond system was faulty if Avengers was the no. 1 seller every month. And really how can it be that faulty they are the ONLY comic distributor out there. lol. Who's really gonna be able to show better how a book is selling than the distributor? Subscriptions and the digital market are not the bulk of business being done. I doubt they even make up 20% of the market.

Uh no, I'm not reaching, I posted a post from a guy who WORKS FOR MARVEL. Books from the direct market are called ESTIMATES for a reason. Diamond even admits to being faulty. And I don't care if it's Avengers, X-Men, Spider-Man or whatever, using faulty sales to prove your opinion is right is reaching. Sorry if I destroyed your entire argument.

[Mikey Brown]

So you are saying that the number sold that we see on sales charts are way off but that the placement of titles in relation to each other on those charts is accurate? How would you know that the placements are accurate if you don't have access to the complete, correct numbers after the fact? Or is the "final, official" Diamond tally released later?

Dude, it's not hard to understand. Did you ignore the Dan Slott post I posted as well?

[Mikey Brown]

I also want to note that it's not only the detractors using numbers here.

So who are the others? What posts are you speaking of?

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

So who are the others? What posts are you speaking of?

I want to say Alex Dragon. A big bulk of his argument was that due to high sales it's a high quality title. It was part of our long-winded rampage against each other.

I still stand firm that numbers has nothing to do with quality here, because it's subjective. There could be a title that only appeals to 10 people in the entire world, and they can all say it's of high quality. Who's to say it's not just because it didn't sell like hot cakes? Aren't the most critically acclaimed "things" of any genre (movies, books, video games) usually initially low sellers? Likewise, something like Wii Sports Resort sells a lot, but most people in the gaming world agree it's shovelware. I can go on and on and make comparisons to other mediums regarding this (and people with a greater comic knowledge can make more relevant comparisons), but I shouldn't have to. This thread is supposed to be subjective anyway, and numbers shouldn't be coming into play. Someone's opinion should not be swayed by numbers, that's completely bias.

[Mikey Brown]

The rankings are an accurate measure of the direct market, though the sales figures sometimes reported are inaccurate estimates that people guess based on Diamond's official rankings. According to Diamond (who would know) Avengers was Marvel's best selling book last month in the direct market, coming in only behind Green Lantern and Brightest Day. However, some comics featuring the better known heroes do receive additional distribution outside of Diamond and the direct market (at bookstores, news stands and the like). Given that the Avengers has some of Marvel's most popular heroes, it likely does well in other markets as well.

All this means is that Marvel isn't likely to fix what, from a business standpoint, isn't broken.

You got most right. From what I understand, Diamond's estimates of units sold are faulty, thats not from people guessing. Diamond gets the rankings right and does the sales units according to what Batman sells. It's weird, I know. They find out what Batman sells (not sure how they go about this) and bases the rest of the books off that. If they get information like Avengers was number 2 in the rankings and sold 3 times as many as Batman then they take that as their estimate. Something like that. And they are always wrong by a lot. Some know more about this than I do so if anyone knows exactly how Diamond comes up with their estimates, please comment. I just know that they are faulty and are called ESTIMATES for a reason and people should really quit using them in arguments. The RANKINGS are fine for an argument because thats accurate, but sales units, hell no. But good post though.

[Mikey Brown]

I want to say Alex Dragon. A big bulk of his argument was that due to high sales it's a high quality title. It was part of our long-winded rampage against each other.

I still stand firm that numbers has nothing to do with quality here, because it's subjective.

And I 100% agree. But I don't remember Alex saying anything like that, he was pretty clear on his stuff. Then again I just joined the conversation a few pages back.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

There are people who are using the argument "comic sales are falling altogether" when referring to Bendis's dropping sales. As if it has anything to do with quality. Quality can increase and readership drop, again it's all subjective.

And I 100% agree. But I don't remember Alex saying anything like that, he was pretty clear on his stuff. Then again I just joined the conversation a few pages back.

At this point the old lame phrase of "Just because it sells, doesn't mean it's good..." gets tossed out. Here's something for those of you who cling to that weak defense when something's popular you don't like need to understand...sales are a barometer of what people like and/or want.

It's much, much better handled than most people on this board, but bringing this into an argument where people are arguing something subjective is completely moot. Of course sales are a good indicator of what people want, but it's not the be-all-end-all of what is quality. McDonalds sells more than Bobby's Burger Palace...etc etc.

But Alex came off, to me at least, like people who didn't like Bendis's work was wrong because a) it sold meaning people enjoy it and b) don't like it because they expect something else. If that's the case, when is ok not to like something? Only when the producer admits it wasn't exactly the way they meant it to go?

[lobsterj]

Dude, it's not hard to understand. Did you ignore the Dan Slott post I posted as well?

Oh yeah, that guy is totally impartial.

[Mikey Brown]

Oh yeah, that guy is totally impartial.

Lets see, believe random CBR Bendis hater #32 or believe the comic pro with the well thought out & well researched post that pretty much destroys your argument. Yeah. Dont look good for you.