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  1. #31

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    Well, that seems to answer that.


    I think Dixon consciously wanted to interpret NW as DC's version of a powerless Spider-Man/Daredevil. Not invincible, all the quips, sometimes a reluctant hero and cheerier. I agree that Dixon's main problem was in creating any great rogues, but ask yourself, how many other writers are able to do it? Like creating a new hero, all the good (or bad in this case) ideas are taken.

    Also, you have to cut a guy a break when other writers take characters and devalue them in a different book. That's out of Dixon's control. Bane and KGBeast were both completely bad-@$$ when they were introduced, meant to be the equivalent to Batman, only evil. Look what was done to them.

    Dick shouldn't be as good as Batman, but he doesn't need to be. He brings a different attitude and outlook on life. Which is refreshing to Mr. Grim n' Gritty all the time. He's also got a slightly different set of baggage than Bruce. Sometimes I think that biggest shadow Dick has to get out from under isn't Bruce's, but the fans.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Werehunter's Avatar
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    In terms of Dick never really defeating Blockbuster, I don't agree with this. Dixon clearly was trying to set Blockbuster up to be like Marvel's Kingpin. How often does any hero really beat the crap out of Kingpin? The way those characters get defeated is by ruining their plans, something Dick did time and time again. Plus Nightwing real villain in his series was Bludhaven itself. The city really didn't want to be saved for too many people gained by keeping the status quo. He not only had to defeat the mobsters, super villains, assassins and even the cops, but he had to convince the people they were worth saving.

  3. #33
    Currently not reading. Sizzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the-wolf View Post
    Well, that seems to answer that.


    I think Dixon consciously wanted to interpret NW as DC's version of a powerless Spider-Man/Daredevil. Not invincible, all the quips, sometimes a reluctant hero and cheerier. I agree that Dixon's main problem was in creating any great rogues, but ask yourself, how many other writers are able to do it? Like creating a new hero, all the good (or bad in this case) ideas are taken.

    Also, you have to cut a guy a break when other writers take characters and devalue them in a different book. That's out of Dixon's control. Bane and KGBeast were both completely bad-@$$ when they were introduced, meant to be the equivalent to Batman, only evil. Look what was done to them.

    Dick shouldn't be as good as Batman, but he doesn't need to be. He brings a different attitude and outlook on life. Which is refreshing to Mr. Grim n' Gritty all the time. He's also got a slightly different set of baggage than Bruce. Sometimes I think that biggest shadow Dick has to get out from under isn't Bruce's, but the fans.
    I like Bane quite a bit, it's just he's been not handled well over the years. I like Gails take on him, shows a different side of him.

  4. #34
    BANNED WorstThingUS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the-wolf View Post
    I think Dixon consciously wanted to interpret NW as DC's version of a powerless Spider-Man/Daredevil.
    Little more than that. Dixon set up the Daredevil scenario and Devin Grayson followed it to its logical conclusion: ripping off Born Again.

    Hero with job pertaining to the law by day? Check (cop and lawyer).
    Physically massive mob boss with a female fixation? Check (Blockbuster & mother, Kingpin & wife).
    Reporter figures out secret id? Check (some reporter from Vanity Fair and Ben Urich of the Daily Bugle).
    Mob boss blows up home after he learns secret ID? Check (Dick's apt building and Matt's brownstone).
    Crazy lover/assassin who works for mob boss? Check (Tarantula and Elektra)
    Professional assassin obsessed with beating hero? Check (Shrike and Bullseye)
    Being broken by mob boss? Check
    Not being so broken by mob boss you forget who you are and make an awesome comeback? Che---oops, only Daredevil got to do that. Under Devin Grayson and Dan DiDio (who said he loved her work) Nightwing hit rock bottom and started tunneling.

    Yes, I'm still pissed.

  5. #35
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Well, the impressive comeback was planned and greenlighted, but then Infinite Crisis happened, and some morons figured that since Dick was going to be killed off anyway, why bother, let's just do some Crisis tie-in crap about the Society.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  6. #36
    www.comicscube.com Duy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorstThingUS View Post
    One of the best things about Chuck Dixon's Nightwing run is that Dick Grayson was every inch the accomplished professional someone who'd been trained by The Batman and doing this all his life should be. Razor sharp mind, physical perfection...he cut through bad guys like a hot knife through butter. They were never pushovers, but when he won, it was how he should win, a seemingly effortless combination of brains and brawn. Even Devin Grayson's run had him face off to essentially his entire rogues gallery and he beat the crap out of them, though pushed to his limits. The nearest pop culture comparison I can make is James Bond. A seasoned professional who's the best there is at what he does. It makes me wonder if it's too much for some writers the way Superman is too much? How can you write for someone who can essentially do anything? It really comes to mind now that he's Batman and he should really be a greater Batman than what we've been shown. Though I found Prodigal, his first tenure as Batman, a little dull, he still kicked ass and took names with a smooth efficiency. Morrison seems to get this, but it occasionally gets lost behind "Oh, I never wanted this" whining (I don't read Winnick, period). More than ever I now miss Chuck Dixon because he could truly do a Dick Grayson-as-Batman justice.

    Thoughts?
    I did a "What's Wrong with Nightwing" thread a while back and one of the things I posited is that the problem with Dick is that he's just, quite simply put, the most well balanced guy there is. He almost literally has no issues; whatever issues he does have, he deals with in a healthy manner. He has father issues with Bruce-- that he can deal with. He has romance issues -- that he can deal with. He's just simply so good at everything he tries to do - athletically, physically, mentally, and emotionally - that writers have a tough time trying to grasp him (because I think of the current need for "angst" or whatever it is) and keep shunting him off into that in-between place between Robin and Batman; no longer Robin and not yet Batman. (Even if he is Batman now)

    When the truth is is that Dick, just like everyone else, is a synthesis of everyone around him. He's been influenced as much by Donna Troy as he has been by Tim Drake. He gets the concept of family and is so good at building relationships that I HONESTLY THINK that Dick is the perfect guy to anchor a team-up book, more than anyone else.

    Also, somewhat related, but we need to see more Dick/Wally interactions. The scene where they're chilling back with beers in Tomasi's run is priceless.

  7. #37
    www.comicscube.com Duy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the-wolf View Post
    I think Dixon consciously wanted to interpret NW as DC's version of a powerless Spider-Man/Daredevil. Not invincible, all the quips, sometimes a reluctant hero and cheerier. I agree that Dixon's main problem was in creating any great rogues, but ask yourself, how many other writers are able to do it? Like creating a new hero, all the good (or bad in this case) ideas are taken.
    I think, critically, Dick could be DC's Daredevil. He has the name recognition, but it's not really that set in stone or that intractable that you can't put a superstar writer and artist, or an up and comer like Frank Miller was when he took over Daredevil, on him and have them run wild with it.

  8. #38
    The Alpha and The Omega Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorstThingUS View Post
    Not being so broken by mob boss you forget who you are and make an awesome comeback? Che---oops, only Daredevil got to do that. Under Devin Grayson and Dan DiDio (who said he loved her work) Nightwing hit rock bottom and started tunneling.

    Yes, I'm still pissed.

    To be fair i think Devin Grayson was leading to a comeback, and even left it open for other writers, but then OYL cut it off and they dropped the ball.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by hangmanjury View Post
    I think, critically, Dick could be DC's Daredevil. He has the name recognition, but it's not really that set in stone or that intractable that you can't put a superstar writer and artist, or an up and comer like Frank Miller was when he took over Daredevil, on him and have them run wild with it.
    All the potential in the world. How? You nailed it on the head.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    To be fair i think Devin Grayson was leading to a comeback, and even left it open for other writers, but then OYL cut it off and they dropped the ball.
    Which is why I hate events and wish they'd go away. All the extra coin they make from them is flushed down the toilet in lost readers from the regular titles over crap like this.

    And, yeah, they can still do it. But, no, it's not the same. Especially now that he's Batman. Interesting that Dick will finally become the man everyone knew he could be. He just won't do it by getting out from under Batman's shadow. The exact opposite, actually. Which, to me, sorta undermines the whole point.

  11. #41
    Part-Time Sith Joe Acro's Avatar
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    Dick Grayson does not have the ability to anything. In fact, he's very limited. Quite often, he gets outsmarted, battered, bruised, pushed to the breaking point, and everything in between.

    This has happened fairly consistently pretty much since his solo comic started. He just doesn't fight as well on his own as he does when he's on a team. I figure it's because he still fights like he does when on a team, which doesn't work as well when the back-up isn't there.

    Nightwing is intended to be a very human character. Yes, he's a hero. But he struggles constantly with that role. He can fail. He can fall. And he can pick himself back up and continue trying to live some semblance of a normal life.

    He's not Superman. He's better.

  12. #42
    Gotham Guardian Captain Jim's Avatar
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    Wow, I had not seen that (Winick's involvement) anywhere else. I guess that lends credence to the theory that Dick seemed kind of "off" in Outsiders at the beginning of OYL because this was originally supposed to be Jason.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werehunter View Post
    In terms of Dick never really defeating Blockbuster, I don't agree with this. Dixon clearly was trying to set Blockbuster up to be like Marvel's Kingpin. How often does any hero really beat the crap out of Kingpin? The way those characters get defeated is by ruining their plans, something Dick did time and time again. Plus Nightwing real villain in his series was Bludhaven itself. The city really didn't want to be saved for too many people gained by keeping the status quo. He not only had to defeat the mobsters, super villains, assassins and even the cops, but he had to convince the people they were worth saving.
    Yep, you need some crazy stuff like "Back in Black" for the Kingpin to get the stuffing knocked outta him.

  14. #44
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
    Wow, I had not seen that (Winick's involvement) anywhere else. I guess that lends credence to the theory that Dick seemed kind of "off" in Outsiders at the beginning of OYL because this was originally supposed to be Jason.
    This always seemed pretty obvious to me. I just didn't think it was his own idea.
    Pitty. If there ever was a good role for Todd in a somewhat heroic role, it would have been as leader of the Outsiders.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  15. #45
    The Alpha and The Omega Godlike13's Avatar
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    Not at the expense of Grayson.

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