CBR: Wonder of Wonders - Oct 19, 2009

[CBR News]

The latest installment of WAR AND PEACE looks at Wonder Woman's fluctuating powers and power levels and examines how different creators have dealt with them over the history of the character, from Marston to Perez and beyond.


Full article here.

[tasslehoff]

Equalist All The Way

[ClaudioPozas]

Neither option.

I don't want her to be "as [insert ability] as Superman". I want her to stand on her own. She isn't as strong as Superman, but has better training. She isn't as fast as the Flash, but then again, no one is ("those were for charity, Clark"). She shouldn't be so invulnerable that she doesn't need the bracelets.

Wonder Woman should be defined by her own stories' needs, not by comparison to any other hero. This would in no way diminish her standing among DC Heroes.

[Mars Getsoian]

Wonder Woman should be defined by her own stories' needs, not by comparison to any other hero. This would in no way diminish her standing among DC Heroes.

You know, it's funny that people say this. It overlooks a pretty key part of Superman's character - he himself is defined nearly completely by the rest of the DC universe, rather than his own needs. He is, like Hulk, "the strongest there is." He doesn't have the strength to lift mountains, or the strength to push planets, or the strength to barely prop up a bus - there is no measure of his strength, whatsoever, other than that it must be stronger than everyone else. Outside of that, he's simply, like every other comic book hero, as strong as he needs to be at the moment. The only definition for it comes from the comparison, the need to do ever more impressive stuff to compensate for whatever impressive stuff other heroes have done. Superman is, explicitly, "the Greatest Hero On Earth." He is, therefore, implicitly, perpetually measured and compared against every single other hero and villain in the DCU, as they are perpetually measured against him; no one will ever be allowed to usurp his "alpha-male status," as Bobby aptly puts it, and that alpha-male status will always be used to define his role in team books and crossovers.

I will never understand why fans try to insist that characters can stand alone and must never have their stories even a little bit influenced by the stories around them in a medium defined almost entirely by its focus on the shared universe and the interactions between said characters and stories.

[galactica]

You know, it's funny that people say this. It overlooks a pretty key part of Superman's character - he himself is defined nearly completely by the rest of the DC universe, rather than his own needs. He is, like Hulk, "the strongest there is." He doesn't have the strength to lift mountains, or the strength to push planets, or the strength to barely prop up a bus - there is no measure of his strength, whatsoever, other than that it must be stronger than everyone else. Outside of that, he's simply, like every other comic book hero, as strong as he needs to be at the moment. The only definition for it comes from the comparison, the need to do ever more impressive stuff to compensate for whatever impressive stuff other heroes have done. Superman is, explicitly, "the Greatest Hero On Earth." He is, therefore, implicitly, perpetually measured and compared against every single other hero and villain in the DCU, as they are perpetually measured against him; no one will ever be allowed to usurp his "alpha-male status," as Bobby aptly puts it, and that alpha-male status will always be used to define his role in team books and crossovers.

I will never understand why fans try to insist that characters can stand alone and must never have their stories even a little bit influenced by the stories around them in a medium defined almost entirely by its focus on the shared universe and the interactions between said characters and stories.

Superman isn't the strongest hero on Earth.

[Mars Getsoian]

Superman isn't the strongest hero on Earth.

Who's going to beat him at arm-wrestling, the Spectre?

You want more powerful than Superman, you have to go cosmic. Basic rule of the DCU. And even if you are more powerful, you're not a better hero, because you lack Superman's virtue, and Superman's inspirational ability, and you will not be the lynchpin of every Crisis, and the multiverse is not a giant statue shaped like you.

Superman is the Best There Is. It's the whole point of him. And you can only be the Best There Is in comparison to everyone else There Is, so saying "measuring other characters by Superman is disrespectful to those characters" is a fallacy. That's what Superman's about, he's the default superhero and the reference point for the whole of his universe.

[4PointOh]

Superman is the Best There Is. It's the whole point of him. And you can only be the Best There Is in comparison to everyone else There Is, so saying "measuring other characters by Superman is disrespectful to those characters" is a fallacy. That's what Superman's about, he's the default superhero and the reference point for the whole of his universe.

And I think it's also why, fortunately or unfortunately, Wonder Woman, more than any other hero, is such a significant threat to a particular readership. Because, in many ways--or, at least, in all the ways that count--she's vying for those "default superhero" and "the Best There Is" positions.

[Gail Simone]

Ack, ANOTHER great column. Great job, Robert!

[3D Master]

I'm both an equalist and a traditionalist. I believe Diana on her own should have no god-given super human abilities. All she can do is through training. On the other hand, I believe that her costume should be made by the gods, and mystically enhance her speed and strength and such to Superman-equal.

[galactica]

Who's going to beat him at arm-wrestling, the Spectre?

You want more powerful than Superman, you have to go cosmic. Basic rule of the DCU. And even if you are more powerful, you're not a better hero, because you lack Superman's virtue, and Superman's inspirational ability, and you will not be the lynchpin of every Crisis, and the multiverse is not a giant statue shaped like you.

Superman is the Best There Is. It's the whole point of him. And you can only be the Best There Is in comparison to everyone else There Is, so saying "measuring other characters by Superman is disrespectful to those characters" is a fallacy. That's what Superman's about, he's the default superhero and the reference point for the whole of his universe.

All that is true but no other superhero is compared to Superman as much as Wonder Woman. Not Batman, Green Lantern, Flash, or anyone else. And Wonder Woman is supposed to be above all those heroes. She is THE Wonder Woman. There are only three other superheroes, from any universe, who are on the same level as her.

PS I don't care if she is as powerful as Superman or more powerful or less powerful. I just don't want her to be that way because Superman is the way he is.

[Black Atom]

Who's going to beat him at arm-wrestling, the Spectre?

You want more powerful than Superman, you have to go cosmic. Basic rule of the DCU. And even if you are more powerful, you're not a better hero, because you lack Superman's virtue, and Superman's inspirational ability, and you will not be the lynchpin of every Crisis, and the multiverse is not a giant statue shaped like you.

Superman is the Best There Is. It's the whole point of him. And you can only be the Best There Is in comparison to everyone else There Is, so saying "measuring other characters by Superman is disrespectful to those characters" is a fallacy. That's what Superman's about, he's the default superhero and the reference point for the whole of his universe.

How is it a fallacy? The fact that the thing that makes Superman relevant is that he is the oldest, greatest hero--not just the the alpha-male, but the alpha hero--is actually incredibly limiting. Hell, I like Superman, but I don't think that is an enviable posisition or one I'd like to see WW put in.

For the record, I'm not against WW being depicted as as strong as Superman. If someone is inspired to take the character in that direction and it results and great stories, terrific. I reject the idea, however, that WW MUST be as strong as Superman to be relevant. Not only does that have severe negative implications
for her story-wise and as an icon in her own right, it's demonstrably untrue.

[jrp001]

I'm both an equalist and a traditionalist. I believe Diana on her own should have no god-given super human abilities. All she can do is through training. On the other hand, I believe that her costume should be made by the gods, and mystically enhance her speed and strength and such to Superman-equal.

I often get confused by Diana's "super (read: god given)" abilities versus her "amazonian" abilities...?

I thought/think all Amazons are inherently stronger/tougher/faster/more agile than normal humans right...? or are they only more highly trained… (meaning any human could live on Paradise Island and learn the ways of the for…uh Amazons?

I am somewhat taken with the notion that the general strength/power baseline of the Amazons should be "more than" human, and that when Diana won the contest, she was gifted with the powers of the gods, making her "more than" the general Amazon...?

kind of like a contract with the Olympians... if you win "The Contest" and get the powers...?


as for comparing her to Supes.. I think that's a tough nut to crack.

Superman is (as said above) the BEST HERO in the DCU... so I think its the definition of HERO that matters. Diana can be a better combatant than Superman, can be a better strategist that Superman, a better peacemaker that Superman, but by the “unspoken” (although that in and of itself is dicey) rule of DCU, Superman is to be better.

Don’t get me wrong… totally ok with Superman being the Best at being the Best, I think that is actually really cool. But when you have a comparable compatriot like Diana… it sure requires some careful and clever writing…

[4PointOh]

I often get confused by Diana's "super (read: god given)" abilities versus her "amazonian" abilities...?

I thought/think all Amazons are inherently stronger/tougher/faster/more agile than normal humans right...? or are they only more highly trained… (meaning any human could live on Paradise Island and learn the ways of the for…uh Amazons?

I am somewhat taken with the notion that the general strength/power baseline of the Amazons should be "more than" human, and that when Diana won the contest, she was gifted with the powers of the gods, making her "more than" the general Amazon...?

kind of like a contract with the Olympians... if you win "The Contest" and get the powers...?


as for comparing her to Supes.. I think that's a tough nut to crack.

Superman is (as said above) the BEST HERO in the DCU... so I think its the definition of HERO that matters. Diana can be a better combatant than Superman, can be a better strategist that Superman, a better peacemaker that Superman, but by the “unspoken” (although that in and of itself is dicey) rule of DCU, Superman is to be better.

Don’t get me wrong… totally ok with Superman being the Best at being the Best, I think that is actually really cool. But when you have a comparable compatriot like Diana… it sure requires some careful and clever writing…

Themysciran Amazons are stronger, faster, more resilient than normal human beings, but they are nowhere near Diana, Donna, or Cassie in terms of power.

The jury is out on the Banas, though. Some people believe that when Circe gave them immortality, she also gave them the same power-levels as the Themyscirans. Others believe that the Banas, while fiercely trained, aren't much stronger than normal human beings.

[troy2g1]

I'm definitely an Equalist!!

Loved the article once again. Thoughtful, detailed & honest. I'm wonder if anybody, creator or reader, comes across these WOW articles and changes their perception of the character.

galactica: Who is stronger than Superman?

Mars: You're amazing.

[jrp001]

Themysciran Amazons are stronger, faster, more resilient than normal human beings, but they are nowhere near Diana, Donna, or Cassie in terms of power.

The jury is out on the Banas, though. Some people believe that when Circe gave them immortality, she also gave them the same power-levels as the Themyscirans. Others believe that the Banas, while fiercely trained, aren't much stronger than normal human beings.

totally... I guess with all the recent Amazonian giggering... Nu-Banas, Wiped away by Granny, Relaunch of the Series, Wipping away the Rucka versions/plot points, I think there needs to be some "in story" exposition (done expertly by our gal Gail) to "re"set the stage post A.A. and post relaunch