Hawkeye Appreciation

[Will.S]

My definition of fun does not include the heroes, the people I want to root for and cheer for, being put through horrible emotional wringers and being forced to live like fugitives as perpetual ways of existence.

I mean...that's cool if it's your bag and all that. I am seriously not casing on that. Some people like dark storytelling. I like it when it's the anomaly and not the norm.

I think there are different ways of seeing something as fun since that falls into a subjective area but I see what you're saying.

[Kieran_Frost]

My definition of fun does not include the heroes, the people I want to root for and cheer for, being put through horrible emotional wringers and being forced to live like fugitives as perpetual ways of existence.

I mean...that's cool if it's your bag and all that. I am seriously not casing on that. Some people like dark storytelling. I like it when it's the anomaly and not the norm.

Why not try Incredible Hercules? It's a great "fun" book. Or Deadpool? Always fun. And if you like Deadpool; Deadpool: Merc With a Mouth is also delightfully fun.

[Taiso]

I've read some of Incredible Hercules and I really enjoyed it. I'll have to try that more.

I just want the MU to be a bright place again.

Hawkeye, as he used to be, encompasses so much of that 'fun' spirit. Even when he was kicked out of the Avengers in favor of The Falcon (WAAAAY back when), and was contemplating his future, that was 'serious' or 'dark' storytelling, but the book never lost sight of its uplifting spirit.

[giovedi]

I like the idea in some ways, because it's so tragic. Clint was such a great, happy guy, AND considering his attitude to "no killing" in the past; which nearly ruined his marriage; it would be tragic irony that this is who he's become now. Maybe this is his "alcoholism story" like Carol or Tony? BUT I will throw something out that I think people forget. In Thunderbolts; during Fabian's run; Clint did fire an arrow at Cyclone's face; only Songbird stopped it. And she asked him later "how did you know I would catch it?" And he just looked at her, implying he was ready to kill, at that moment. Or at-least okay with the possibility Songbird wouldn't catch the arrow.

Many people blame Bendis for Clint's descent; but it had begun before then.

Anyway, I always like your replies; and look forward to more.

First, thanks I like your replies, too, and it's nice to hear different views on Clint. He is my favorite Marvel U character, so I enjoy reading any discussion on him, positive or negative.

It's hard for me to believe that Clint would want to murder Norman. He was really upset when he accidentally killed Egghead. He got mad at his wife (at the time) for not saving Phantom Rider-- and that guy raped her.

There's no denying that Clint has been changing over the years. He went from a follower to a leader... from just a circus sideshow act to leader of Avengers teams (WCA and now NA) and Thunderbolts (and some others I may be forgetting). To me, these made him a stronger person. He wasn't the blind "I'll do anything for you Black Widow" wannabe superhero and had grown up. But now, that fun Clint that's been around for so long isn't really there anymore... well minus the new Black Widow mini where he's frying eggs without a shirt on and he's surprised it hurts when hot grease hits the skin.

The change under Bendis stands out the most to me, though. Seems Clint just suddenly went on this downward spiral. From the arguments with Spidey, it reads to me that Clint was voted leader, but no one respects him. His ex-wife plays mind games with him (I wanna take things slow, Let's have "snuggle" time, You're not my husband, That's my husband!, etc).

In New Avengers Annual #3, I admit, I can see Clint rushing in a building alone, but not to assassinate someone. He apologized at the end of that issue, but it just felt so.... awkward. But that would go into saying how much I don't really enjoy New Avengers under Bendis, which is a whole other topic here.

That's a good point that Clint's change could be his "Demon in a Bottle". There's still some NA loose story ties as to why the power drainer pulled him down, how does the encounter with Wanda change him now, is this Clint or a skrull (I made that up), etc.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

I hope he gets a cool costume when he comes back to Hawkeye. The purple stuff really makes him unappealing. Just ask that actor who said he'd like to be him, but without the purple.

[motteditor]

I could well imagine the death/resurrection/death/resurrection was the straw the broke the camel's back; hence his change of identity; his change of style; it could, as you say, be what caused the mental break/PTS.

I think the problem with this is all of it was so dumb. Hawkeye's not the brightest bulb in the box, but he's not so stupid he can't take off his quiver when it catches fire. This is a character who faced down an elder of the universe by himself. He's not just going to give up and off himself because things look bleak.

Add to that, it was never actually said how he came back. Wanda just brought him back? Granted, her powers were completely changed in Dismembered, but I mean that isn't even close to something she's able to do. Or if it is, why not bring back every single dead super hero?

[Hawk I 21]

I think I'm actually one of the few people who like the Ronin identity ... lol. To me it brings a change of pace to the character and it's easy understand how his personality has changed and how people don't like it. But with what people have said above you can't blame the guy. Hopefully his character will be explored more. And it would be pretty sweet if he got a ongoing solo series.

[Kieran_Frost]

I think the problem with this is all of it was so dumb. Hawkeye's not the brightest bulb in the box, but he's not so stupid he can't take off his quiver when it catches fire. This is a character who faced down an elder of the universe by himself. He's not just going to give up and off himself because things look bleak.

I don't think getting killed by the woman you once loved, brought back, killed by her again and brought back is a far-fetched leap to PTS. Think of Vietnam; how many soldiers got PTS afterwards. I'm sure many of them were "happy, and cheerful" before they went. I think Clint has plenty of reason to feel like a broken man. People can get PTS from the death of a relative, soldiers who never end up firing their gun, or killing someone, can get it. What do you mean by the quiver on fire, by the way?

I wish more writers explored the concept of what it means to die and come back. Didn't a writer explore that with one of the religious X-men? About not finding God? Funnily enough, despite people hating Bendis; he does actually have Bob try to understand what it means to die and come back; and is that a good thing? Should men be unable to die properly? For example: 1st degree murder, in America, can result in execution. But what if the person you killed is brought back to life? It was STILL 1st degree murder, because the reason people get the death penalty is greatly due to the premeditated ending of someone's life. Robbing the world, if you will, of it's most sacred commodity (as cheesy as that sounds). But if the person comes back, can you still execute the murderer; considering that "commodity" is still available now? Something to think about.

Add to that, it was never actually said how he came back. Wanda just brought him back? Granted, her powers were completely changed in Dismembered, but I mean that isn't even close to something she's able to do. Or if it is, why not bring back every single dead super hero?

But she is able to bring people back from the dead. When Magneto killed Quicksilver in House of M (by smashing his head in with a Sentinel's head... which was pretty BAD ASS; by the way); she brought him back to life. I think it is assumed Wanda was the one to bring Clint back; though you are rigjt, it's never been "confirmed" as such.

[Will.S]

That's a good point that Clint's change could be his "Demon in a Bottle". There's still some NA loose story ties as to why the power drainer pulled him down, how does the encounter with Wanda change him now, is this Clint or a skrull (I made that up), etc.

I think that might be the best way to describe Clint's era as Ronin. He's not hanging out with the usual Avengers and the dynamic has drastically changed since he was last Hawkeye so once the Avengers resembles something he can associate with Hawkeye again he'll probably leave the Ronin identity behind.

I do think it was out of character for Clint to go after Norman with lethal force but at least Bendis had him apologize and see that it wasn't his typical behavior.

I think the problem with this is all of it was so dumb. Hawkeye's not the brightest bulb in the box, but he's not so stupid he can't take off his quiver when it catches fire. This is a character who faced down an elder of the universe by himself. He's not just going to give up and off himself because things look bleak.

Add to that, it was never actually said how he came back. Wanda just brought him back? Granted, her powers were completely changed in Dismembered, but I mean that isn't even close to something she's able to do. Or if it is, why not bring back every single dead super hero?

Logically I can only imagine that Wanda made Clint stupid enough to not be able to dislodge the quiver and do a suicide run on the "Kree". Bravado aside, it seems too out of character for him to have done that as a final last stand so I think Wanda's hex had far reaching effects on everyone throughout Disassembled.

As far as the resurrecting stuff goes, Busiek's run had Wanda's bring Wonder Man back from the dead. Plus Wanda's kids showing up again as Billy and Teddy shows that she can bring them back in some form or another.

Her hex magic has probably just gotten to the point of being extremely potent.

[motteditor]

But she is able to bring people back from the dead. When Magneto killed Quicksilver in House of M, she brought him back to life. I think it is assumed Wanda was the one to bring Clint back; though you are rigjt, it's never been "confirmed" as such.

But the whole House of M thing was far beyond her powers. It's like saying one misuse of her powers is justified by a different misuse of her powers. The only other time she's come close to that was when Morgan Le Fey used her AND a giant Asgardian artifact.

As for Simon, Wanda didn't bring him back to life. She just helped him focus his ionic energies and gave him a reason. After all, Atlas came back and Wanda wasn't responsible for that.

[giovedi]

I hope he gets a cool costume when he comes back to Hawkeye. The purple stuff really makes him unappealing. Just ask that actor who said he'd like to be him, but without the purple.

Didn't that same actor not even know his real name? Called him "Clive" or something...

[Global Honored]

Which actor are you guys referring to? Clive Barton is the man. Almost as cool as that Stan Rogers.

[Kieran_Frost]

But the whole House of M thing was far beyond her powers. It's like saying one misuse of her powers is justified by a different misuse of her powers. The only other time she's come close to that was when Morgan Le Fey used her AND a giant Asgardian artifact.

I'm missing your point? "If" she brought Clint back, both times it would have happened during her House of M event. When, as you say, her powers were uber-strong. I don't get what you're imply, sorry? Are you saying that it wasn't Wanda?

[Taiso]

Which actor are you guys referring to? Clive Barton is the man. Almost as cool as that Stan Rogers.

This is the funiest thing I'll read on the internet this week.

As for the Ronin character, I don't mind if there's 'A' Ronin running around, but I'd like for Clint to just go back to being good ol' Hawkeye.

Or they could make him Giant Man/Goliath again. How wild would that be?

[Will.S]

But the whole House of M thing was far beyond her powers. It's like saying one misuse of her powers is justified by a different misuse of her powers. The only other time she's come close to that was when Morgan Le Fey used her AND a giant Asgardian artifact.

I agree that her power level achieved a large jump from Disassembled onwards but at this point it is what it is so Marvel's running with it. But at the same time it also depends on whether one finds Bendis' take on her power jump to be worth the stories we've gotten or whether it actually does feel consistent with everything else.

As for Simon, Wanda didn't bring him back to life. She just helped him focus his ionic energies and gave him a reason. After all, Atlas came back and Wanda wasn't responsible for that.

I think that still qualifies as a resurrection given that he couldn't reform on his own will.