CBR: When Words Collide - Oct 12, 2009

[CBR News]

Tim revisits John Byrne's '80s Superman revamp and considers how the reimagining of an icon worked as a gateway to the DCU and what its legacy is today, after all the changes Byrne made seem to have been undone.


Full article here.

[LieutenantNon]

Anyone know when can we see more of Byrne's Superman: Man of Steel TPB's from DC, collecting this run?

Lets get Vol 7!

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Great Column Tim!
Particularly great, because it sums up perfectly how I feel (!) about the Byrne era - that his relaunch was very much needed - and that there is nothing wrong with bringing back in the elements he stripped it of.

Personally, I liked his origin, I liked the Birthright origin, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of the Secret Origin take (which on the Superman board, makes me something of a rarity).

I love the elements from the past that have come back in - Krypto, Fortress Of Solitude, Supergirl (well, when she's written well) - but I like them a lot more in their current form, than I do in their original appearances, and I think that's because Byrne really grounded the man they are all taking part around, rather than to the 'Teflon hero', so it was nice to read someone explaining that point of view so well!
(I think I'll just link to the column from now on, rather than trying myself and muddling it up as per usual).

Oh, as for Gary Franks drawing him to look like Christopher Reeves... who even notices?
Renato Guedes is the premiere Superman artist at the moment in my opinion, and I'm dumbfounded as to the fact that no one seems to be pointing out what consistently amazing work he has done on the character (and any character who has guest starred as well - his Kryptonians versus the Justice League from the recent collection was just plain awesome!).

[hondobrode]

Yes Tim, great column that helped to sum up exactly how I felt about the Byrne run.

I'd like to see what Byrne really wanted to take Kal back to : Jumping over buildings, getting bruised by bullets, etc. Super but not as god-like.

It would make a great Superman Year One for the Golden Age Kal.

Too bad Jerry Ordway couldn't do it. Love his Golden Age-style so much. His art made me swoon back in the days of All-Star Squadron.

[TimothyCallahan]

Guedes has been saddled with some less-than stellar coloring. (That Atlas arc? Sheesh!) And I have to say that I prefer the work Frank is doing these days. Though Guedes is a hell of an artist.

But, yeah, the Byrne Superman gets a bad rap now, and it really doesn't deserve it. And, man, his run still LOOKS great (except Lois's terrible haircut)!

[DHacker615]

Excellent article.

I really do not understand the anti-Byrne feeling at DC right now. His approach may have gotten rid of some Silver Age elements that I later missed, but it was badly needed overall. Several of his changes were massive improvements. Superboy looks better through the haze of nostalgia and Lex Luthor as a mad scientist does not pose any real threat. His take on Metallo drove a couple very good episodes of the Bruce Timm series.

I missed Supergirl in Kara Zor-El mode, Krypto, the Fortress of Solitude and General Zod. Byrne had no idea how to handle Brainiac. However, on the whole his batting average was pretty good.

[ka_pow]

I love this article too. But reading it only points to my frustration for the amount of revisal some characters are allowed to improve their audience's changing appetites and others languish from a lack of successful reinvention. Allow me to tangent and then bring it back home. Don't you all feel that the same sentiments expressed here could be felt for what Levitz/Perez did with Wonder Woman? At that time, readers were less than thrilled with the formulaic approach to the character that dated back to the Andru/Kanigher era-blond, bland Hippolyte, blond, bland Steve Trevor, stupid invisible jets and kid sisters et. al. The Post Crisis team reentered Diana as a mythological figure turned ambassador instead of a super heroine, and it was all very fresh and exciting, until Perez quit anyway. In 20 years the whole concept has basically eaten itself (with a noteworthy run by Greg Rucka, who basically wrote the epitaph for the Perez canon) with it's own limitations, devolving into typicallly little more than sword and sorcery fare. The problem is the Perez foundation which has never been smashed or recanted. With Superman, Geoff Johns has been able to reinvent the wheel on his own terms changing several elements of the mythos to whatever period serves him best and basically recanonize the entire story. That's how Superman has become so crucial again to the fabric of the contemporary DC Universe. Ironically, the only writer to give a serious effort to a good baseline restructuring of WW reaching back before 1988 was John Byrne. He used some very cocamamie ways of getting things in place, but when his run was done, the Jet was flying again (and morphing into any necessary vehicle), Diana dressed like Wonder Girl when she was a kid again, there was another Wonder Girl, Diana and Donna were related again, Wonder Woman (rightfully!) was back in WW 2 where her fashion made sense via Queen Hippolyta and (finally!) Diana got her own digs- Gateway City, her very own mythological big city to protect (like the other Triniters). Then, the next writer came in and virtually did away with the whole shebang and it was back to Conan-world for the Princess. Why hasn't Gail Simone been given the same carte blanche as Johns? If she has, why won't she use it? Since the Heinberg debacle, all of the current characters and trappings feel like they've just had a sloppy new coat of paint thrown over them, because there is no reference point for where this character starts and ends anymore. The woman has just become boring. Her teeth are constantly shown gritted, as though she shares our frustration with how mundane she's become, not to mention how much she gets devalued. Ed Benes drew her bare asscheeks in Justice League repeatedly. Why don't we see the other Gold-Standard "Trinity" members sporting Speedo Schlong Slings with their emblems printed on their packages? This is how we treat the Mother of all Superheroes? Morrison showed in "All Star Superman" how the most seemingly absurd elements of a character's history could be contemporized to stellar effect. Wonder Woman should totally have that. With an updating of the core concepts of the original character, her book could be a standout on today's shelves. Everything needs to be reintroduced and made clear and firm from the ground up- a new secret origin, the works. Consistancy from the enitre editorial staff and gobs of respect-like the kind Superman constantly gets leading us to this fine article we just read. Morays and needs change greatly in 20 years. Fashion operates on a swing, and that's why Byrne's Superman worked then, and the Morrison/Johns day is now because we're nostalgic for the Kal-El many of us in the over 35 readership bracket (which is a healthy percentage) remember. Same with Di- I want my jet, I want Priscilla Rich to be the Cheetah (because that's who runs headlong at WW when Superman runs at Luthor or Batman at the Joker, or GL at Sinestro on a book cover or the Challenge of the Superfriends intro), I want Steve Trevor even- I think Riley from "Buffy" is a great example- a man's man who has to play bitch to a woman who's twice the man he is by BIRTHRIGHT. A competant writer can take those things and not have them be rediculous or played out like they'd become in the mid-80s when Byrne and Perez came in and saved the day.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Guedes has been saddled with some less-than stellar coloring. (That Atlas arc? Sheesh!) And I have to say that I prefer the work Frank is doing these days. Though Guedes is a hell of an artist.

What did you think was amiss in the Atlas arc?
I didn't like the colouring in the scenes with Atlas - everything seemed changed to accommodate his uniform and skin tone - but thought the rest worked fine.
I really like the way colourists work with his art - I got into Superman from 'One Year Later', and through to New Krypton (especially in New Krypton), his art looks amazing - hence I think it odd that he seems treated as the B-artist on Superman.

For big scenes Franks is alright, but up close, all of his characters look like they don't have enough skin, and so it's being stretched over them - look at his faces, particularly around the eyes, and you'll see what I mean.

[rev sully]

I didn't really read Byrne's Superman...I remember it. The Man of Steel mini...then the new #1...
But what I really, REALLY loved was the Byrne/Cockrum/Mignola "The World of Krypton" 1-4 mini. What a ride. What vision. What a blast! In our IntrePoop society I think of issue #4 and the isolation of people joined by their own Information Age.
And the warsuits! I loved the warsuits!!! And the whole mess of the clones and the mother using one of her own clones to find a wife for her son...I mean still to this day, "ewwww!".
it was so vast and imaginative. Although I love the Modern Age return to what made Superman heroic...I did really dig teh look, feel and tone of "The World of Krypton". I had it for YEARS. read it a lot.
When it's followup "The World of Smallville" then the World of Metropolis came after, they got mired and stuck into the "Millennium" event crossover. It really brought it down. But I did like how Ma Kent's maiden name was "Clark"...is that still canon? I know I can RTFM that one. ^_^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Kent

BTW...is Clark still a vegetarian, a la "Birthright"? C'mon...beef Bourginon anyone? ^_~
yup...still Martha Clark, eh?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

What did you think was amiss in the Atlas arc?
I didn't like the colouring in the scenes with Atlas - everything seemed changed to accommodate his uniform and skin tone - but thought the rest worked fine.

I looked at that trade again last night... man was I wrong, that arc has horrific colouring throughout.
Something about that arc brought out the worst in everyone involved I think.

[bottlecityofkanga]

Great article!

I enjoyed Byrne's run but missed Supergirl. I think it all started to unravel a bit when they introduced that "pocket universe" so the Legion could still have a Superboy...

[Monteblanco]

At the time it was released, I actually enjoyed Byrne's run, more for the concept than for the stories themselves. I never liked Superman until that run and I did appreciate the humanisation of the character as well as the removal of most Silver Age's elements, such as Kandor, the Fortress of Solitude, Krypto, and the god-like power level, in particular super-intelligence. Gradually, most of these elements were introduced back into comics and my interest faded way. Although All-Star Superman proved me it is possible to do a good Silver Age Superman story, I don't really care much for the character this days and I haven't read any of Superman's title in many years -- perhaps in a decade. Anyway, it's good to know that, at least, Byrne's humane take of the character remained.

[MikeCr]

I really do not understand the anti-Byrne feeling at DC right now.

I don't know about the "at DC" part but I would suggest that a lot of people's resentment of Byrne has more to do with how, over time, his ego has led him to assert that his approach was the way to do Superman rather than a way to do Superman. This has ossified into "Byrne's Principles" or whatever they're called that you'll get his sycophants repeating at times as if they're self evident truths. I'm not a Superman fan by nature but I can understand why people would be aggreived when they're told that the approach they prefer is inherently the "wrong" approach.

[rev sully]

Hey Callahan!

Why we're in-topic...hauzabout a Top 5 Superman artist? I had a great time reading your Spider-Man top 5 when we were talking about it (Deodato was great...too bad Sins Past is where I jumped off but iDigress...)

Gosh...I can only start at #1

1. Curt Swan
2. Mike Mignola...I got two words, "Cosmic Odyssey".
3. Frank Quietly...Clark versus Kal is all in the posture for All-Star. Also JLA: Earth-2 and the
4. Max Fleischer-style...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_(1940s_cartoons) ...I love this look. It's Beyond Golden Age. It's the Ur-Superman Himself. Watch the movies...he doesn't fly, he leaps.
5. Alex Toth...SuperFriends! I know I picked two animated ones but Toth had a great style. I almost said Bruce Timm but I already have a few beefy Kal-Els. Toth was the iconic Superman of my childhood.

Honorable Mention: Gary Frank for recent Superman & LSH, George Perez for CoIE, Ed McGuinness for Superman/Batman Public Enemies & Annual #1, Tim Sale for Superman for All Seasons...on yeah, Mike Grell for that 1978 oversized Superboy & the Legion of Super-Heroes issue when Lightning Lad & Saturn Girl get married and the timestream gets all loopy? Well, that issue starts off my CRISIS longbox. Am I missing anybody? Oh yeah...Doug Mahnke for the Final Crisis #6 panel and Beyond 3-D. Just wow and the look on Ultraman's face with the cords standing out on his neck.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I don't know about the "at DC" part but I would suggest that a lot of people's resentment of Byrne has more to do with how, over time, his ego has led him to assert that his approach was the way to do Superman rather than a way to do Superman. This has ossified into "Byrne's Principles" or whatever they're called that you'll get his sycophants repeating at times as if they're self evident truths. I'm not a Superman fan by nature but I can understand why people would be aggreived when they're told that the approach they prefer is inherently the "wrong" approach.

Well, to him it may seem like his way was THE way to do Superman - of course, he left the book after a couple of years.

Couple of years later, sticking to his approach, the only stories they could come up with to generate interest were killing the character, and then marrying him.
The silver-age elements have started coming back in, and seem to be bringing story after story with them.