The Mephisto is not the devil topic (IS TOO!) - The Mephisto Mega Thread

[Jim Thompson]

Id agree with that.....

Me too.

[RDMacQ]

It matters that Mephisto is more the devil than not.



Not really. No current mainstream theology I'm aware of claims the devil literally bargains for human souls. That's something that is built around folklore and superstition (and Puritan theology at its lowest).

But Mephisto provides a literary opportunity to address the evils Satan represents. The biblical Satan is something of a non-personality by comparison.

When a writer invokes popular imagery of the devil, he or she signals how we as readers should respond. Just as we readers know that fat jolly man with a white beard and a sleigh means Santa. We also have images of Jesus and Socrates that resonate, however distant they might be from the reality of their appearances. So the moment you know Mephisto is a stand-in for the devil it creates tension. The protagonist's immortal soul is in peril whether he recognizes the fact or not.

(An interesting note about Lewis' Screwtape Letters, which is written from the perspective of a devil. Lewis was criticized for emphasizing smaller acts of evil. Screwtape's motto is something like, "never go for murder when a simple game of cards will do the trick.")



Typically, Ghost Rider raises continuity issues concerning Mephisto where OMD raises moral concerns. That's where the real debate is. The point is Peter made a deal with a manifestation of pure evil.



No, because the point is that a bin Laden stand-in invokes certain expectations. If he hands your hero a suitcase to take to a crowded shopping mall, you expect it to be a bomb or a biological weapon. If your hero makes a deal with a stand-in for the devil, you expect the consequences of that action to be addressed.

At any rate, I think the "Mephisto isn't the devil" argument is valid. The problem is, it's valid in the other direction. According to Christian theology, Mephisto would be (at least on some level) exactly who the devil wishes he could be. The devil's punishment in Genesis is that he must take the form of the serpent. There's a spiritual truth there. The irony is this guy who wants all the glory can only reach his secondary goal of destroying mankind by slinking in the shadows and hiding his true motives. In the Spider-Man mythos, the real devil would be behind the scenes telling Peter to let the burglar pass by. That doesn't work so well in a literary sense, especially in a superhero universe where conflicts (like underwear) are largely external.

Earlier I said Mephisto is more the devil than not. I was half-wrong.

Mephisto is more the devil than the devil is.

Well said, Theophilus. You make some very compelling points.

[Farmernudie]

One of the kids at my house tonite looked rather "Phisty like"......

It made me want to ask him if he was supposed to be the devil or a level 2 demon..!

Happy Hollow-weenie everyone!

[ShaggyB]

One of the kids at my house tonite looked rather "Phisty like"......

It made me want to ask him if he was supposed to be the devil or a level 2 demon..!

Happy Hollow-weenie everyone!

lol are you sure he wasnt the real devil? i mean he looked like it right?



Happy Halloween

[Farmernudie]

lol are you sure he wasnt the real devil? i mean he looked like it right?



Happy Halloween

LOL...I was so thrown off by seeing Phisty in my own doorway....my interviewing skills went out the window!!

I didn't get to ask him about his heroics of saving old ladies, or about collecting marriages, or even about the joy of hearing the Parker's souls screeching beautifully in his ears.

I will tell you this, he is MUCH shorter in real life than i imagined he would be!

[ShaggyB]

Anyone pick up Dr. Voodoo #2 yesterday?

It confirms Mephisto and Satan are two different entities... as Jericho checks on both..... (believe he even mentions Blackheart as an equal but different entity... but we knew that one)

[Jim Thompson]

Anyone pick up Dr. Voodoo #2 yesterday?

It confirms Mephisto and Satan are two different entities... as Jericho checks on both..... (believe he even mentions Blackheart as an equal but different entity... but we knew that one)

"Clean up on aisle six!"

[ShaggyB]

"Clean up on aisle six!"

I wont even mention GhostRider Heavens on Fire #4 confirming Master Pandemonium is no longer linked to Mephisto (again)

[David Walton]

"Clean up on aisle six!"

There's Marvel's next big project.

"After betting it all on Peter Parker's marriage, Phisty is now the laughing stock of the infernal realm...and the frowning stock boy of Wal-Mart! Yes, see what happens when the devil assigns the fallen demon to pose as a Wal-Mart employee. Will Phisty's evil plot to put the milk, bread and beer furthest from the entrance and from each other help him rise through the ranks of evil again? What is loveable shift supervisor Satan McSatan's terrible secret?...And will even the prince of darkness find himself smiling at falling prices?"

CLEANUP ON AISLE 666!

[The Shadow]

Anyone pick up Dr. Voodoo #2 yesterday?

It confirms Mephisto and Satan are two different entities... as Jericho checks on both..... (believe he even mentions Blackheart as an equal but different entity... but we knew that one)

BAH... Marvel must be WRONG. Their trading cards from 15 years ago say so!

[Farmernudie]

All that matters is who the writer(s) say he is, for each individual storyline they want to put him in or have put him in at whatever time.

[ShaggyB]

All that matters is who the writer(s) say he is, for each individual storyline they want to put him in or have put him in at whatever time.

No, what matters is what the current continuity says he is.... thats how one knows what he is. Hes not The Devil regardless of how hes used in OMD.... because the devil existed as a separate character well before his use in OMD and well after.

[Farmernudie]

No, what matters is what the current continuity says he is.... thats how one knows what he is. Hes not The Devil regardless of how hes used in OMD.... because the devil existed as a separate character well before his use in OMD and well after.

Well, Joe says it is clear who he is in OMD....i am sorry that it is confusing for some people, as per who he is in OMD.

Sheesh.

If they change who the original thief was in the origin story...and say is not a thief "now" and that he is a Cucumber Farmer...does it really change the writers intent and who the writer said they (the character) was when the story came out?

[ShaggyB]

Well, Joe says it is clear who he is in OMD....i am sorry that it is confusing for some people, as per who he is in OMD.

Sheesh.

If they change who the original thief was in the origin story...and say is not a thief "now" and that he is a Cucumber Farmer...does it really change the writers intent and who the writer said they (the character) was when the story came out?

It changes who did the killing. Example Batman's parents were killed by joe chill... unless you were reading batman after the retcon to he didnt know and the murderer was never found. While the original idea may have been what it was it didnt change the fact that it no longer was.

You can keep saying its clear who he is in the story.... but the only thing that is clear is that he is playing the part of the devil in a faustian story... hes not "the devil". Ghost Rider Volume 3 pre-dates OMD and features the Devil... after OMD it still features the devil, and its not mephisto.... Circular logic like what you are attempting does not change the fact that Mephisto is not The Devil.

Im sorry if its confusing. I get that youd prefer to not have to research a character thats rarely ever seen in a Spider-man book to understand who and what he is really. I get that youd rather take face value on something.... but as per your own joke on Halloween.... Was that kid really the devil at your door or if you followed him home and took the time to do some investigation of him, would you have found that he was just a normal kid pretending to be the devil in the grand story that is Halloween night. While its clear who the child was suppose to be for halloween, that didnt make him The Devil any more than Mephisto is The Devil for playing the part of The Devil in OMD.

[Farmernudie]

Good thing Joe said it is open for debate whether he is the devil or not!

Shaggy: You can keep saying its clear who he is in the story.... but the only thing that is clear is that he is playing the part of the devil in a faustian story

Wow...Phisty is like an actor playing a role now!