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  1. #1591
    Spider-man/DCU Moderator ShaggyB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonyleopard View Post
    Peter made a deal with a demonic agent of Evil and deceit.
    you should point out that fact to those stating he is literally the devil when they make that claim... it just furthers the argument when the real issue is what you have listed.
    (ive said it before in this thread)

  2. #1592
    Dying Wish goes "Boink" Farmernudie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonyleopard View Post
    Ultimately though, does it really matter if Mephisto is THE DEVIL or a devil. He's clearly the Lord of one of the levels of Hell along with Hella, Satan, PLuto and all the others (according to some of the recent Thor issues, when Hela had to come to him to sorta get a squatters version of her Hel in his realm), i think the fact that he actually is the biblical Devil is moot. Peter made a deal with a demonic agent of Evil and deceit. A Demonic agent who's powerful to alter the flow of time so dramatically it not only aided in allowing for a world wide mind wipe of innocent people, but has also altered the life flow of numerous people as a consequence (Just how many Spider-Man characters have now been brought back from the dead solely because of the new direction the deal set off? Harry and Kraven comes to mind immediately, cause it's easy to say that had the new direction hadn't taken place the story idea to bring Kraven back to life may not have happened. And of all the characters who have died, Kraven's was one of those I wish would have stuck just because of how awesome the story of his death was).

    There's not semantics one can parse about that fact. Peter dealt with a demonic being that set off the domino effect of having not only his life line changed, but those of others around him, regardless if by the time the situation happened a second time, the original guy that set the first domino over didn't "Bother to show up". Fact is, Peter's CPR wouldn't have been able to happen if Mephisto hadn't set the chain of events in motion (and a second deal wasn't needed since the original one was already in effect and the contract fulfilled).

    yeh....this arguement that people are having makes no difference in my eyes no matter how much one wants to argue semantics.

    "a" devil

    "the" devil

    devil deal

    level 3 demon deal

    the whole thing is silly and doesn't distance Peter from what he did and whom he did it with, despite God and Aunt May telling him not to basically.

    And regardless, if Aunt May found out who she owes her life to now, she would NOT be happy.
    Ok....Superior Spider-Man is kinda interesting, i admit....that being said....i miss Peter Parker and that there isn't a "real" spider-man monthly being published

  3. #1593
    Dying Wish goes "Boink" Farmernudie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaggyB View Post
    you should point out that fact to those stating he is literally the devil when they make that claim... it just furthers the argument when the real issue is what you have listed.
    (ive said it before in this thread)
    does anyone actually think this character in a comic book is "the" devil of the bible or whatever it is you are implying though??

    i mean, i know we've argued this for years, but i am not sure what we are arguing anymore about this, besides semantics and what equations prove what lines in OMD are lies and which are panels with truth in it.

    The story isn't this difficult.
    Ok....Superior Spider-Man is kinda interesting, i admit....that being said....i miss Peter Parker and that there isn't a "real" spider-man monthly being published

  4. #1594
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmernudie View Post
    does anyone actually think this character in a comic book is "the" devil of the bible or whatever it is you are implying though??

    i mean, i know we've argued this for years, but i am not sure what we are arguing anymore about this, besides semantics and what equations prove what lines in OMD are lies and which are panels with truth in it.

    The story isn't this difficult.
    Yeah, I think people are really reaching at this point to make OMD make any sense. Its just sad at this point, I mean no one does this for the clone saga so I assume this is just people attempting to justifiy the current direction. Not saying you cant like the current direction but still.

  5. #1595
    Spider-man/DCU Moderator ShaggyB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmernudie View Post
    The story isn't this difficult.
    I wonder about that too.... some dont even get the story correct. But i think thats due to trying to play the blame game.

  6. #1596
    Spider-man/DCU Moderator ShaggyB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlesthehammer View Post
    Yeah, I think people are really reaching at this point to make OMD make any sense. Its just sad at this point, I mean no one does this for the clone saga so I assume this is just people attempting to justifiy the current direction. Not saying you cant like the current direction but still.
    The Internet was not as big back during clone saga.... be hard to tell how that would go down in todays times.

  7. #1597
    Spider-man/DCU Moderator ShaggyB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmernudie View Post
    yeh....this arguement that people are having makes no difference in my eyes
    my question is if it really makes no difference to you, then why do you bring up what JQ said in an old interview in an attempt prove Mephisto was the devil? If it makes no difference why not just avoid the arguement and get to the root of the problem. Isnt it really all about how evil won?

  8. #1598
    Illustrator of Stuff Ebonyleopard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaggyB View Post
    you should point out that fact to those stating he is literally the devil when they make that claim... it just furthers the argument when the real issue is what you have listed.
    (ive said it before in this thread)
    Yes, but you can not also deny that at various points since the creation of the character Mephisto that he hadn't bee seen by various writers as indeed being Marvel's version of the devil as Jack Kirby has been now shown in one instance to be the God of the Marvel Universe (or a visual representation for the Jewish God (as far as Ben Grimm is concerned.).

    Afterall, all things being fair, there's a reason so many people THINK Mephisto is THE DEVIL, and thats because prior to the current admins of Marvel he was used in every which way as their fictional representation of him.

    Heck, some one who hadn't read a single Marvel comic but saw, say, the Ghost Rider movie, where GR is referred to as the Devil's bounty hunter, and the Devil in that movie being called Mephistopheles, which if they then went to the comics and found that that character's origin (Johnny Blaze made a deal with Satan who later was revealed to be Mephisto) - Taken from his I'm sure Marvel approved Wiki page "The first supernatural Ghost Rider is stunt motorcyclist Johnny Blaze, who, in order to save the life of his mentor, agreed to give his soul to "Satan" (later revealed to be an arch-demon named Mephisto). Instead, his soul bonded with the entity called Zarathos. When utilizing Zarathos' powers Blaze's flesh is consumed by hellfire, causing his head to become a flaming skull." Then it's pretty darn easy to see why people THINK Mephisto IS THE DEVIL because prior that's exactly how he was depicted in the pages of Marvel comics.

    Gotta remember, a lot of people on the thread have been reading comics more than say 10 or 15 years.
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  9. #1599
    Dying Wish goes "Boink" Farmernudie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaggyB View Post
    my question is if it really makes no difference to you, then why do you bring up what JQ said in an old interview in an attempt prove Mephisto was the devil? If it makes no difference why not just avoid the arguement and get to the root of the problem. Isnt it really all about how evil won?
    i don't think he is THE devil....lol...

    i do think the story is clear as to who he is and who marvel chooses to use him as or not use him as historically when they do or don't want to.

    the story is the same whether you want to call him A, THE, or level 3 demon...as some do...lol..sheesh..ya know!? lol

    regardless, my point is it doesn't matter, because evil won, as you say, lol
    Ok....Superior Spider-Man is kinda interesting, i admit....that being said....i miss Peter Parker and that there isn't a "real" spider-man monthly being published

  10. #1600
    Illustrator of Stuff Ebonyleopard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmernudie View Post
    yeh....this arguement that people are having makes no difference in my eyes no matter how much one wants to argue semantics.

    "a" devil

    "the" devil

    devil deal

    level 3 demon deal

    the whole thing is silly and doesn't distance Peter from what he did and whom he did it with, despite God and Aunt May telling him not to basically.

    And regardless, if Aunt May found out who she owes her life to now, she would NOT be happy.
    You are also right. Had the writer and editing staff had not allowed the scene of Peter talking to "God" and being told what he was told and to then have Peter go 100% 360 to what GOD told him to do.. well, some people would have more issue with the fact he went directly against the word of God (which would mean he'd believe IN God inorder for him to even comprehend having a conversation with him) and instead went to who he knew was Evil to find the solution to a problem others told him they could not help him with.

    Does this mean that Mephisto in the Marvel U is more powerful than God? Does this mean that God would not bother saving the life of a woman while Mephisto would (for a "price")?

    Frankly I just find it bad story telling for the simple fact that an established bad guy (one of the worst in the Marvel U) got away with a victory against a hero that the hero will never get a chance to redeem himself against.
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  11. #1601
    Dying Wish goes "Boink" Farmernudie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonyleopard View Post
    You are also right. Had the writer and editing staff had not allowed the scene of Peter talking to "God" and being told what he was told and to then have Peter go 100% 360 to what GOD told him to do.. well, some people would have more issue with the fact he went directly against the word of God (which would mean he'd believe IN God inorder for him to even comprehend having a conversation with him) and instead went to who he knew was Evil to find the solution to a problem others told him they could not help him with.

    Does this mean that Mephisto in the Marvel U is more powerful than God? Does this mean that God would not bother saving the life of a woman while Mephisto would (for a "price")?

    Frankly I just find it bad story telling for the simple fact that an established bad guy (one of the worst in the Marvel U) got away with a victory against a hero that the hero will never get a chance to redeem himself against.
    yeh, evil winning, and Pete getting no closure but instead a skippy new world to live in ...just seems a little wrong.

    I would like to have them logically follow up their own story devices at least...maybe have the heroes or SOMEONE look into their tampered minds...find out about the devil deal somehow, being angry at pete with the very personal mental tampering the world endured because of this and go after spidey! something maybe a little Identity Crisis like...i dunno...

    Also, have Aunt May find out about who she owes her life to, and set up and interesting and NEW dynamic with her vs. pete and what he did to her, against her will, and with WHO.

    there are actual NEW storylines for spideybooks to explore instead of editorial tampering device with no logical follow thru exploring some of these ideas they set up the new world's foundation with here...

    Instead we get a sloppy spidey wash via magical mephisto and no folding or ironing it seems. again, no closure. Pete turns to the bad guy (away from God and Aunt May) and the bad guys wins basically, though he is the only one who can conveniently save the dying elderly woman with bullet wound.

    but yeh, Joe's story contrasts God and the devil characters....good and evil...and yet we argue semantics on "the" devil and "a" devil and such...for some reason...
    Ok....Superior Spider-Man is kinda interesting, i admit....that being said....i miss Peter Parker and that there isn't a "real" spider-man monthly being published

  12. #1602
    My Turn. Kevin Nichols's Avatar
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    You know who's just as bad as Spidey? Valeria Richards. She made a deal with Doctor freakin' Doom! She even invited him to join their team! Evil is totally winning in FF.



    If Valeria weren't so young, I'd say she and Spidey should.....


    No, the combined evil of Val and Spidey would shake the Marvel U. to its foundations.
    "Women... they come and go, but the Jonah is eternal." - ViewtifulJC

  13. #1603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Nichols View Post
    You know who's just as bad as Spidey? Valeria Richards. She made a deal with Doctor freakin' Doom! She even invited him to join their team! Evil is totally winning in FF.



    If Valeria weren't so young, I'd say she and Spidey should.....


    No, the combined evil of Val and Spidey would shake the Marvel U. to its foundations.
    I never really got the team up with evil to fight a greater evil, or at least how its usually presented. It would be interesting to see them betray them and capture both the evils involved, instead of letting them go. Which makes no sense from a heroic standpoint.

  14. #1604
    Illustrator of Stuff Ebonyleopard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Nichols View Post
    You know who's just as bad as Spidey? Valeria Richards. She made a deal with Doctor freakin' Doom! She even invited him to join their team! Evil is totally winning in FF.



    If Valeria weren't so young, I'd say she and Spidey should.....


    No, the combined evil of Val and Spidey would shake the Marvel U. to its foundations.
    Well, to be fair to Val, Doom did bring her into this world, named her, and used her as a human version of a witch's black cat. That and she's a child, which by default makes her void of normal rules of moral judgement anyway (Kids are evil).
    Creator of Extinctioners published by www.angryvikingpress.com

  15. #1605
    My Turn. Kevin Nichols's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonyleopard View Post
    Well, to be fair to Val, Doom did bring her into this world, named her, and used her as a human version of a witch's black cat. That and she's a child, which by default makes her void of normal rules of moral judgement anyway (Kids are evil).
    Kids ARE evil! This is true!
    "Women... they come and go, but the Jonah is eternal." - ViewtifulJC

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