The Mephisto is not the devil topic (IS TOO!) - The Mephisto Mega Thread

[ShaggyB]

Except that you have argued that he is the prince of lies and that he is most likely lying about those reasons given.

that doesnt mean you wont be shown later what it was really all about.

[Meehaul]

Jim Shooter, on his blog, has an interesting discussion of how Marvel exercised editorial discretion to remove Jesus and an explicit acknowledgment of the "Christian conceptions of heaven and hell" from the MU in a Ghost Rider story. Marvel has a Satan (not Mephisto) of course, but Shooter said the Company (at least back then) wanted to avoid identifying the MU with any particular religious beliefs (except the ones no one really cares about today, like Zeus, Odin, Thor, Herc, et al). He wanted to leave it up to the readers' imaginations, basically, but did not want Jesus depicted in the books for fear of giving offense or explicitly endorsing any religious ideology. Shooter's blog is definitely an interesting read about the inner workings of Marvel at the time.

[KyleDW2]

yes i can because Ive read stories that prove the characterization of Mephisto. "Mephisto Vs." is one of the few stories where Mephisto tells the reader, through closing monologue, what he was really after and it was nothing like the things he was telling the heroes and the reader earlier in the story.

That story was in 1984... Mephisto has had that characterization for years. All the evidence exists for anyone whom knows anything about Mephisto to find.

The story has Mephisto telling the heroes one thing but really desiring something different and hidden from them and the reader until the very end. (then only the reader learns the truth... and thats if you believe him after all the lies hes already told)

OMD has him tell the hero one thing to gain something he has never been shown to go after. The reason he gives is to spite "He whom he hates most", which fits firmly into his pretending to be the devil act. Leaving the reader to scratch his head.... why would he want a marriage to spite something he never fights with? Perhaps if the reader didnt know Mephisto or had never read any stories with him I could see how they would fall for the act.

But this is the internet, there is no excuse for you to not have untold years of knowledge on mephisto at the click of a button. WE know for a fact that he lies about everything but X for Y. We know for a fact that he uses language to appear to be the devil. And we know for a fact that he rarely tells the hero what he is truly after. (hell he barely tells the reader in the end.) Knowing all that, a reader can not take Mephisto at his word in OMD. Its believing a liar because nothing else was given. (thats just how the character works.)

So Peter Parker might actually be a rapist then? I mean, sure, there is no evidence to suggest that at all in any of the stories I've ever read, but there is also nothing to show he has never raped anybody either. And remember, once he snapped and hit a woman in rage. Who is to say that he couldn't have done more? Can you prove to me that he didn't?

Do you see why your argument doesn't work now? We can't judge a story based on what isn't in it. We can only go with what did happen, what was said. And unless you can point to an exact page from OMD or some other comic where Mephisto even hints to wanting Peter and M.J.'s marriage for a different reason, your theory doesn't work and is just making excuses for a terrible story that needs excuses made for it in order to make sense.

[KyleDW2]

Jim Shooter, on his blog, has an interesting discussion of how Marvel exercised editorial discretion to remove Jesus and an explicit acknowledgment of the "Christian conceptions of heaven and hell" from the MU in a Ghost Rider story. Marvel has a Satan (not Mephisto) of course, but Shooter said the Company (at least back then) wanted to avoid identifying the MU with any particular religious beliefs (except the ones no one really cares about today, like Zeus, Odin, Thor, Herc, et al). He wanted to leave it up to the readers' imaginations, basically, but did not want Jesus depicted in the books for fear of giving offense or explicitly endorsing any religious ideology. Shooter's blog is definitely an interesting read about the inner workings of Marvel at the time.

Which is odd, because I believe around that time DC was working on Vertigo where they stated quite clearly that the Christian God was the big God and the biblical Satan was the actual Devil. They had John Constantine and Morpheus having fun adventures with angels and devils and the Spectre was the embodiment of God's judgement on Earth. So if OMD had happened in DC, there would be no denying it. It would have been the honest to God Devil that Peter would have dealt with.

[RDMacQ]

that doesnt mean you wont be shown later what it was really all about.

That assumes he was lying, which is something you have yet to prove.

[Meehaul]

Which is odd, because I believe around that time DC was working on Vertigo where they stated quite clearly that the Christian God was the big God and the biblical Satan was the actual Devil. They had John Constantine and Morpheus having fun adventures with angels and devils and the Spectre was the embodiment of God's judgement on Earth. So if OMD had happened in DC, there would be no denying it. It would have been the honest to God Devil that Peter would have dealt with.

Given that Martin Goodman, Stan Lee, et al are all jewish, it isn't surprising at all that they might not want the MU identified as Christian, or anything else, for that matter.

[ShaggyB]

That assumes he was lying, which is something you have yet to prove.

i proven enough to question whether he was telling the truth based on previous characterizations and stories. His motive given makes no sense for the character and his previous characterization shows that he likes to not share the real reasons.

I get that you dont want to say its remotely possible... but the reality is that it is....

[charlesthehammer]

i proven enough to question whether he was telling the truth based on previous characterizations and stories. His motive given makes no sense for the character and his previous characterization shows that he likes to not share the real reasons.

I get that you dont want to say its remotely possible... but the reality is that it is....

No, thats not evidence at all. You can suspect, but thats it really.

[RDMacQ]

i proven enough to question whether he was telling the truth based on previous characterizations and stories. His motive given makes no sense for the character and his previous characterization shows that he likes to not share the real reasons.

I get that you dont want to say its remotely possible... but the reality is that it is....

You haven't proven he was lying in that story. Which is kind of the important thing.

[ShaggyB]

So Peter Parker might actually be a rapist then? I mean, sure, there is no evidence to suggest that at all in any of the stories I've ever read, but there is also nothing to show he has never raped anybody either.

that would work if i hadnt supplied you with a story example. I get what you are trying to go with but im using previous stories to show you a patern of actions for mephisto.

[ShaggyB]

You haven't proven he was lying in that story. Which is kind of the important thing.

but i have proven hes a liar whom has lied about his motive before. One would think you would have reason to question it based on previous patterns. But you can lead a horse to water..... cant make him drink.

[charlesthehammer]

that would work if i hadnt supplied you with a story example. I get what you are trying to go with but im using previous stories to show you a patern of actions for mephisto.

The examples are meaningless, characters can and have gone out of character, so try and judge the character by the story, and not by what you make up yourself.

[charlesthehammer]

but i have proven hes a liar whom has lied about his motive before. One would think you would have reason to question it based on previous patterns. But you can lead a horse to water..... cant make him drink.

Sigh, no you cant. Especially when its not set in stone that they have to follow the patterns. An example is when Peter left Venom on that island, in character Peter would have went back when healed to deal with him (a crazy murder) or at least feel guilty. He did neither of those things.

[ShaggyB]

The examples are meaningless, characters can and have gone out of character, so try and judge the character by the story, and not by what you make up yourself.

correct me if im wrong here, but did i not just give you a story i didnt make up where mephisto lies multiple times about his reasoning and then monlogues the real reason to the reader on the last page?

Sure he could be telling you the truth, but if youve read mephisto before you have reason to question it. the story doesnt exist in a vaccume (at least i hear that many posters cant stand BND and after because of what came before.... either you can do it or you cant as youve said....)

[ShaggyB]

I said this in the other thread:

I often hear posters say that OMD is still affecting current stories... either previous characterization/stories color the preceptions that a reader has on current stories or they dont. You cant have it both ways. Take your pick.