CBR: Wonder of Wonders - 9/15/09

[Mart]

I once had a very interesting discussion with Fables creator, and creative genius, Bill Willingham, wherein he expressed amazement at the hatred of AA. He thought it was a great book all the way around.

Well, it looked quite nice (except when innocents were being slaughtered)!

I suspect Bill's never been a regular reader of Wonder Woman if he could accept SA as a logical extension of the Wonder Woman book. Off to the new SA thread to see what else is being said . . .

[lead sharp]

I was thinking of jumping in with the discussion here, but this line just has me thinking there's no point. It's garbage, and if anyone calls you on it with chapter and verse you'll likely resort once more to 'IT WAS A JOKE!'

No it wasn't a joke, the Lady Death thing was a joke as I said.

How is it garbage?

Wonder Woman has been around for 70 years. And even Gail noted that she's better known for being played by Linda Carter and appearing on mugs than she is in comics.

Take 70 years of books and of course shes sold more. But that's because there's only been a hand full of characters going for seventy years. Batman and Superman have been through exactly the same rigmarole. No matter how good they were written Marvel possessed the top 10 during the 90's till Spawn came along. Take any year you like and all the figures are there, you can't dispute them. The highest I've found WW is 49 (so far, I'd love her to be higher) That's not a popular character, that's selling to a minority in the comic reading community. It's been a steady minority I'll grant you but it's a minority.

Here's a great example right here. Justice League. Sold badly, handled badly no one liked the damn thing. Brief runs were popular but on the whole it was a lame duck.

Grant Morrison came along.

Boom! Number one.

Not just because of the writer (and any one who says the art was good needs some anatomy lessons) but because he came along and by all accounts demanded the big seven. Because that's what the JLA is, the big seven the theme is 'The worlds greatest heroes save the world from threats they can't handle alone.'

Now I am willing to bet that if he'd been playing with the original bunch of no marks in the JLA the book would have sold a few to start with but then died. And I've just remembered that the only big gun they allowed back in the 90's (after the Giffen run, yes I know they were allowed to have Batman) was WW. Didn't save the book.

Here's an example of the same thing but from the other direction, Harley Quinn. Loved that book but you can tell no one knew what to do with her. The first half of the run was Harley playing cupid, the second half was Harley being a thief. Neither really worked and the book died on it's arse. Now I know that the length of the run and so on is an unfair comparison but from a creative point of view, scale it up and that's WW.

I'm not trying to detract from the character, I'm not trying to knock the creators I'm just not slapping anyone on the back and turning a blind eye to the fact that WW has been mishandled and widely ignored by the comic reading community. And my thoughts on it are that she's never been given a strong enough 'theme'. Call it direction, motivation, setting whatever it's not there.

And so far no ones actually suggesting what to do with her.

Just occurred to me, this whole board was started up with the aim of increasing awareness of Wonder Woman. I'm going to leave that hanging right there.

[Shurato2099]

I once had a very interesting discussion with Fables creator, and creative genius, Bill Willingham, wherein he expressed amazement at the hatred of AA. He thought it was a great book all the way around.

Why, for the gods' sake? Like everything else associated with Countdown it was short-sighted, disorganized, over-hyped, mischaracterized and detrimental to any character shown in it for more than one panel at a time.

My answer to all of that stuff would be to have Duela Dent wake up in a psych ward after a bad dream, commenting about the need to change her dosage.

[obiwomble]

I could be wrong but it's fair to say the grounds for a war between the US and Amazons were sown in Rucka's but since that run ended, it isn't known if he would have taken it in the direction of a war.

Personally, though the seeds of misunderstanding that can lead to war were there, I'd have preferred it if the war was averted. The Amazon view in Rucka's run is that the world beyond Themyscira is that of man, but does that recognise the changes already made? The Amazons are dismissive of the doctor who treats Diana after her battle with Medusa, because of where she learnt her skills. The attitude is unworthy of them.

What they miss is that there is a good deal of fear of them by the outside world - because there is no defence against them. Yet they should have the wisdom and knowledge to perceive this and act to defeat it, or else what makes them the better side? That would have been a surprising resolution but a fitting one.

[Mart]

This was the bit I was thinking of as particularly daft: virtually every female character that's come along has been written, drawn and overall thought out better than WW because length of runs and subjectivity make comparisons unhelpful. I loved Marvel's Ultra Girl series by Barbara Kesel and Leonard Kirk. Wonderfully entertaining and so consistent in quality - for its three-issue run.

If you want a fun look at comic heroines, there's a new book out you may enjoy, The Supergirls by Mike Madrid - there's plenty on Wondy in there: http://dangermart.blogspot.com/2009/...rminating.html

[Kevenn]

Great article, Carol!

[CarolStrick]

Thanks, Kevenn!!!

Though I have a list of possible subjects to handle in the future, I'm always open for ideas, so hint hint!

[Kevenn]

What about an article examing Diana's relationships with her friends/various supporting cast members throughout the years?

[Deej]

You know, this is one of things I have come to notice and HATE about comics, but this title especially. I'm by no means a serious message boarder - most of the time I'm just clicking through, once a month, to see what's up with my favorite characters.

But this is what I've observed over the years:

Every three, four years, we get a new writer on Wonder Woman. And it's like the the sky opens and everyone goes nuts. The new writer is praised, appreciated, celebrated - there is SO much clamor before his/her first issue even hits. People make their requests and suggestions on what they would like to see, the writer agrees they'll "see what they can do"... and for a year or so, it's great. Then starts phase two - tearing the writer and direction down.

And I'm not singling out any one writer.
This happens EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

It seems to happen more to writers of Wonder Woman.
I can't even recount all of them. I remember mostly, George Perez - everyone sang his praises - which lasted a great while - but people got bored when he stopped drawing the title. Phil J, bless his heart, got EVERYONE excited, and tried to take EVERYONE's vision of Wonder Woman and create Wonder Almagam, and by the time it was done, everyone was ready to burn him at the stake. John Byrne (may his 50 foot wonder-tiara rest in peace), William Messner-Loebs, don't get me started - but it began the same with his run, as well. Any writer with any acclaim that has tried to tackle the Amazon gets great praise in the beginning but after that first year - watch out.

When she's shown with hefty talk bubbles, fans scream "preachy", "wordy". When she's fighting and battling, fans scream "she's a lover - not a fighter". When she's crying, fans scream "sissy", "girlyfied" and when she's cold fans scream "not enough heart".
Give me a break.

Gail - you've mentioned in an interview somewhere before that past writers have been very helpful and informative to you -- I am willing to bet that at least ONE of them said "beware - they will turn on you". Am I right?

It can't be an easy job. Woman Woman has become more of a symbol than a character. I assume it's like writing a comic about Santa Claus, or the McDonald's arches.


I think the biggest problem with Wonder Woman continuity is, in fact, trying to "keep it simple" and making it easier for new readers to jump on board. I think the problem is trying to make it easy - because without a deep back-story, there can be no plot development. You can't have continuity, without continuity itself. You can't fuss about Diana's lacking when her origins, her supporting cast, her powers, etc are completely being watered down for "new readers".

When I began reading comics, it wasn't during a "jumping on" point and I did just fine, thank you. If I found the comic interesting enough to continue on, I would. If I felt I needed a back-story, I bought back-issues. Nowadays, we have the internet. I can Wiki up a back-story on ThunderViking or iPod Woman if I want.
When I picked up my very first issue of Titans, it was during Titans Hunt. A little confusing, yes - but that's when i returned to buy back-issues. It's not rocket science. It's comic books. With pictures!

I'm 50/50 on this article. I know that Carol loves Wonder Woman -- there is no doubt in my mind. I don't necessarily agree with all of the ways she'd like to see Diana, but everyone envisions Diana in their own way.
She brings up very good points. She asks questions that need to be asked. There DOES need to be some sort of Wonder Bible given to each writer coming on-board. Or, instead, how about just asking them to read back issues??? Is it that complicated?

Is it too complicated for DC to scan Volume 2 of WW onto a cd-r and ask the new writer to read it within a month before they begin? I was asked to read a LOT more material than that in much shorter amounts of time in college, and I wasn't being paid for that. Sometimes I feel like I spent more time on research papers in high school than some of the writers of vol 2 did on Diana. Why is this? The powers that be @ DC should expect a new writer of a certain length to go back and know at least a few years ( 2 years = 24 comics - a half day's worth of reading?)

This not only helps the new writer know the character, but also what previous writers have done before - what areas to touch, and what hasn't been explored yet. (And this wasn't aimed at Gail. Gail loves Wonder Woman, and has BEEN a fan. It's apparent. And that's what I like. I would rather pay to read Wonder Woman written by a FAN than by ANY "big name t.v. writer" who's just along for the sake of adding something to their resume. Gail's Wondie might not be MY Wondie, but she's pretty darn close!)

[Mars Getsoian]

When she's shown with hefty talk bubbles, fans scream "preachy", "wordy". When she's fighting and battling, fans scream "she's a lover - not a fighter". When she's crying, fans scream "sissy", "girlyfied" and when she's cold fans scream "not enough heart".
Give me a break.

You know, that's actually two different sets of fans. What you're seeing there is "you can't please everyone," not "nobody is ever pleased by anything ever."

[DHacker615]

I once had a very interesting discussion with Fables creator, and creative genius, Bill Willingham, wherein he expressed amazement at the hatred of AA. He thought it was a great book all the way around.

Clearly, I need to read this AMAZONS ATTACK thing and make up my own mind.

[Gail Simone]

You know, this is one of things I have come to notice and HATE about comics, but this title especially. I'm by no means a serious message boarder - most of the time I'm just clicking through, once a month, to see what's up with my favorite characters.

But this is what I've observed over the years:

Every three, four years, we get a new writer on Wonder Woman. And it's like the the sky opens and everyone goes nuts. The new writer is praised, appreciated, celebrated - there is SO much clamor before his/her first issue even hits. People make their requests and suggestions on what they would like to see, the writer agrees they'll "see what they can do"... and for a year or so, it's great. Then starts phase two - tearing the writer and direction down.

And I'm not singling out any one writer.
This happens EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

It seems to happen more to writers of Wonder Woman.
I can't even recount all of them. I remember mostly, George Perez - everyone sang his praises - which lasted a great while - but people got bored when he stopped drawing the title. Phil J, bless his heart, got EVERYONE excited, and tried to take EVERYONE's vision of Wonder Woman and create Wonder Almagam, and by the time it was done, everyone was ready to burn him at the stake. John Byrne (may his 50 foot wonder-tiara rest in peace), William Messner-Loebs, don't get me started - but it began the same with his run, as well. Any writer with any acclaim that has tried to tackle the Amazon gets great praise in the beginning but after that first year - watch out.

When she's shown with hefty talk bubbles, fans scream "preachy", "wordy". When she's fighting and battling, fans scream "she's a lover - not a fighter". When she's crying, fans scream "sissy", "girlyfied" and when she's cold fans scream "not enough heart".
Give me a break.

Gail - you've mentioned in an interview somewhere before that past writers have been very helpful and informative to you -- I am willing to bet that at least ONE of them said "beware - they will turn on you". Am I right?

It can't be an easy job. Woman Woman has become more of a symbol than a character. I assume it's like writing a comic about Santa Claus, or the McDonald's arches.


I think the biggest problem with Wonder Woman continuity is, in fact, trying to "keep it simple" and making it easier for new readers to jump on board. I think the problem is trying to make it easy - because without a deep back-story, there can be no plot development. You can't have continuity, without continuity itself. You can't fuss about Diana's lacking when her origins, her supporting cast, her powers, etc are completely being watered down for "new readers".

When I began reading comics, it wasn't during a "jumping on" point and I did just fine, thank you. If I found the comic interesting enough to continue on, I would. If I felt I needed a back-story, I bought back-issues. Nowadays, we have the internet. I can Wiki up a back-story on ThunderViking or iPod Woman if I want.
When I picked up my very first issue of Titans, it was during Titans Hunt. A little confusing, yes - but that's when i returned to buy back-issues. It's not rocket science. It's comic books. With pictures!

I'm 50/50 on this article. I know that Carol loves Wonder Woman -- there is no doubt in my mind. I don't necessarily agree with all of the ways she'd like to see Diana, but everyone envisions Diana in their own way.
She brings up very good points. She asks questions that need to be asked. There DOES need to be some sort of Wonder Bible given to each writer coming on-board. Or, instead, how about just asking them to read back issues??? Is it that complicated?

Is it too complicated for DC to scan Volume 2 of WW onto a cd-r and ask the new writer to read it within a month before they begin? I was asked to read a LOT more material than that in much shorter amounts of time in college, and I wasn't being paid for that. Sometimes I feel like I spent more time on research papers in high school than some of the writers of vol 2 did on Diana. Why is this? The powers that be @ DC should expect a new writer of a certain length to go back and know at least a few years ( 2 years = 24 comics - a half day's worth of reading?)

This not only helps the new writer know the character, but also what previous writers have done before - what areas to touch, and what hasn't been explored yet. (And this wasn't aimed at Gail. Gail loves Wonder Woman, and has BEEN a fan. It's apparent. And that's what I like. I would rather pay to read Wonder Woman written by a FAN than by ANY "big name t.v. writer" who's just along for the sake of adding something to their resume. Gail's Wondie might not be MY Wondie, but she's pretty darn close!)

Yeah, I'm not happy to say it, but in fact a BUNCH of them said the readers were some variation of 'difficult.'

I am going to say something that will upset some folks, but I THINK this is part of it. I THINK a huge percentage of Wonder fans, and Legion fans, have this perfect image in their head that they think is the only way WW should go. Which is fine, but the problem is that everyone ELSE has a different idea, as well. SO instead of criticism, a lot of what comes out is resentment. Universally, almost, the hardcore fanficcers are the most vicious (casual fanficcers do not seem to go this way), because they have a sense of entitlement that really THEY should be doing this job.

That stuff isn't pleasant to say or hear, but comparing notes with other writers, from this vantage point, it's almost undeniable.

So it's kind of a tower they've built around themselves--they know they will never actually have to PROVE that they and they alone know the perfect solution, so it costs nothing to claim that they do, or to throw insults at anyone who actually does try.

I think it's a kind of...hmm. A kind of process, I guess. I think these people do hit a more realistic and less fantasy-based viewpoint at some time.

The thing is, I have no resentment about that stuff at all. I think it's kind of charming, in a way, and I don't mean that to be patronizing. It's someone who loves the character as much as I do, and is just as protective. They just don't choose to express it in a way that is more than just frustration, and that does seem like it'd get hard after a while.

I'm not sure why Legion and Wonder Woman have this situation in such excess, although I have my theories.

But to me, it's just an extension of the adoration that most of us feel for the character, so I try my best to be patient in the face of it (but don't always succeed). I do listen, but as I've said before, a writer shouldn't be a jukebox. No great stories are ever told by consensus of the readership, I don't believe.

I hope that makes sense. It's not a judgment, but there IS a lot of denial out there among certain groups. One day as a working pro at DC and Marvel would disabuse many people of their fantasies, because the system is not set up for you to accommodate your particular perfect vision, it just isn't and you learn that very fast or you fall by the wayside like so many before you.

What you learn to do is fight for what you think is important and make sure that you try to always tell a great story no matter what obstacle, foolish or well-intentioned, is placed in your way. Even Geoff Johns and Brian Bendis are told, "no, you can't do that," sometimes, and it only takes a couple of those to demolish your imaginary complete revamp of CHARACTER X. The fantasy of writing comics is miles away from the reality. It just is.

It's still pretty great, though. ;)

[DHacker615]

I think the biggest problem with Wonder Woman continuity is, in fact, trying to "keep it simple" and making it easier for new readers to jump on board. I think the problem is trying to make it easy - because without a deep back-story, there can be no plot development. You can't have continuity, without continuity itself. You can't fuss about Diana's lacking when her origins, her supporting cast, her powers, etc are completely being watered down for "new readers".

When I began reading comics, it wasn't during a "jumping on" point and I did just fine, thank you. If I found the comic interesting enough to continue on, I would. If I felt I needed a back-story, I bought back-issues. Nowadays, we have the internet. I can Wiki up a back-story on ThunderViking or iPod Woman if I want.

When I picked up my very first issue of Titans, it was during Titans Hunt. A little confusing, yes - but that's when i returned to buy back-issues. It's not rocket science. It's comic books. With pictures!

Personally, I think the business side of things things kind of dictates the appropriate level of complexity.

Something like CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS worked as a result of the transition from the news-stand to the direct market in the early 80s. It was possible to assume that readers would get all twelve issues in a timely manner and the retailer could use COIE to cross-sell to to other titles. However, it also killed off a lot of non-superhero content, since stuff like JONAH HEX and SGT. ROCK were unconnected to the universe wide stories that were soaking up all the available dollars.

The business is in the process of shifting again.

We are already at the point where two-thirds of the revenue coming into the Big Two is from trade paperback re-prints. Most of these collections are not sold down the direct market sales channel. The assumption of a reader saturated in both the history of the character and the current events of the universe is probably no longer valid.

That said, the Internet makes meta-textual allusions much more palatable. In theory, a writer could refer back to an old episode of the Lynda Carter series, or the personal biography of William Moulton-Marston, or a passage from Edith Hamilton as easily (or perhaps more easily) in an issue of WONDER WOMAN than the latest issue of BLACKEST NIGHT.

Sooner or later, someone is going to figure out how to make that work to their advantage in the same way Alan Moore figured out that he could, in effect, serialize a novel in WATCHMEN as a result of the direct market.

[DHacker615]

Twice agreed.
Why characters like Promethea, Kabuki, Spider-Woman, She Hulk and Ms.Marvel sell better is because the writers aren't interested in creating an icon or a myth so they just tell great stories. That becomes their thematic base. Even Lady Death was stronger thematically than WW's ever been.

Dude, when you are wrong at least you commit.

2004 was a very good year for She-Hulk. Marvel re-launched her in a well-regarded series and she generated some nice buzz. As result, SHE-HULK did indeed out-sell WONDER WOMAN. Once (http://tiny.cc/bQBB4).

However, WONDER WOMAN out-sold SHE-HULK for the year by around 1,000 issues on average (33,000 to 32,000 per month). Neither PROMETHEA, nor KABUKI, came anywhere close. The averaged around 16,000 issues each.

If sales are some sort of indication of the "thematic base" of character, then Wonder Woman is Shakespeare compared to the properties you mentioned.

[T.O.M.]

Wonderful debate too bad I didn't get in on it when it was fresh.
And in light of what happened last week, definitely ironic. But now that time has gone by the fix is more than likely in the works.
Since the current story is just a gimmick.
Maybe JMS will cheery-pick from the best of WW's past when the time-line is"corrected".