Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation

[Rheged]

Again, that evidence is massively outdated and like you said, not really complete. It's NOT something to kill a person over. I see your point that their demands may have been suspicious, but Namor didn't explain that to Susan and I don't think he had cause to kill based on that. Deciding to say "no" to part of their demands, I understand.

It is if you think the ancient evidence is supported by your present evidence. They looked and acted like the same evil basterds that he'd been warned against.

Because they probably feel connected to those places as "their ancient home", regardless of whether they're evil or not? Because they have no idea what any of those places look like now and are negotiating blindly, with the only thing they remember is that that's where they used to live? It doesn't imply that they are evil.

But they don't remember. Again, I can't expect the UK to surrender London, just because I read somewhere that my prehistoric ancestors lived there. And yes, it does imply they are Evil, if they were Evil and they want to set up shop in lands blighted by Evil. Nor does it suggest they are good, if they want the lands occupied by Atlantean barbarians.

It's not normal for Wakanda because they were never driven from their homes, and they had a reasonable territory size to begin with, and the population of the countries surrounding them weren't ridiculously small while claiming huge tracts of land they couldn't even defend.

It's not normal for any hidden society. You don't see hidden jungle tribes demanding Aztec monuments or large tracts of jungle, when they are discovered.

They "came out of hiding" because they were found. It wasn't some evil plot of theirs.

And had they chosen, they could have remained hidden. But they didn't. They chose to have Susan announce their presence.

As I remember Susan just went and told Namor about them. She then brokered a negotiation between the two. The OA didn't personally go and demand territory, and I don't think they asked Susan to do so on their behalf. What did you expect a "good" civilization to do, NOT deal with outsiders? NOT take a chance to expand if they could? Any civilization will do these things, especially if they have so little land and there is a lot of land just sitting around. Doesn't make them evil.

There's no reason for Susan to ask for those places, or any places, for the Old Atlanteans -- especially since she's clearly clueless about Namor's Atlanteans. That's all on the Old Atlanteans. And yes, I expect 'good' countries NOT to covet their neighbors lands -- it usually leads to war. I'm sure the Native Americans would have been much happier if the Europeans had NOT decided to expand into all those lands that were just sitting around 'unused.'

I thought the Reeds were lying to everyone. They lied to Attilan and they might as well have lied to these guys. Anyway, this doesn't really matter: it had no impact on why Namor chose to kill them since he didn't know about this.

It goes to show that Namor was right. They haven't changed. They are the same predatory greedy basterds. It doesn't matter if Reed lied to them -- they could have gone to each other and settled things peaceable amongst themselves, but they didn't. They chose to believe an outsider and go to war over land.

[Wren]

First off, diplomatic summits are big on protocol, and things like the number of an honor guard and entourage are important, especially amongst two cultures who, clearly, ritual and precedence play a large role. Having one side make all the concessions is insulting and doesn't put them in a strong position to negotiate.

And exactly how DID being outnumbered vs. Namor being out of their weight class play out? With Namor and the Atlanteans as prisoners. Granted, I thought that was a completely ridiculous outcome. Namor alone should have been able to mop up the Old Atlanteans, but that's not how Hickman wrote it.

It's Susan who decided the battle, otherwise he would have just bombed them since it was his water they were meeting in. But what "strong position"? Namor is not negotiating he is making concessions. They have nothing to offer him and everyone knows it. He didn't NEED a stronger position. Anyway, the OA didn't kill him when they could have. So I guess his fears were actually unfounded and the only reason he would have needed the guards, would be to butcher them faster.

But they don't want to live on an island. They want to live in places which will cause problems for the Atlanteans, where the barbarians or Set could easily correspond to a much larger threat than missiles.

That's not a fair comparison. You're talking about comic books, where Evil, with a capital E incontrovertibly exists. Set worshipers are Evil. If the modern Old Atlanteans want Evil Set areas, then chances are they are Evil, just like their ancestors. No one wants Set worshippers to expand.

They don't know that they're Set worshippers, for one thing. It's possible that they really have changed and that they would have fought against the barbarians and Set worshippers. I agree it looks suspect but again, it's something they're asking for and it's not clear whether it's because it's their ancestral home or because they just want to worship Set. What Namor wanted to give them was apparently ridiculously little, but he could have stated that those places were off-limits and he would give them places that were reasonable to him.

I can see what you are getting at here -- the Wicker Man is now an effigy, and not a real person. But change usually comes about because of outside influences, and this group of people have been totally isolated for millenia. And it looked like it was the same definition. They got some outsider, Sue, to do their dirty work. They said it didn't mean the same thing, but they said it while Sue was keeping the knife from their throat.

Yes but that was why Namor's move was way premature. So because they didn't satisfy his secret intents, based on like... 1 meeting, they should all be killed? It's not reasonable. He should have made sure before attacking.

And the Old Atlanteans could have explained to Sue that there was ancient conflict back when they were killers, rapists, pillagers, and evil Set worshippers, and the Atlanteans finally kicked their butts and they'd been hiding out since then. But they didn't bother to explain that to her either, did they? Nor did they explain what exactly the responsibilities or the old meaning of her title.

Because to them it's ancient, ancient history? Namor feels it's relevant because it's all he knows. They have had hundreds of thousands of years of more relevant information about them to give her. It's like complaining that when we meet aliens we don't inform them that as Cromagnons we killed each other by the millions. It is completely irrelevant.

And again, Sue could have looked at an Atlantean map and understood what those places represented, but she didn't. She didn't do a lick of research about the Atlanteans, nor did she bother to find out why the Old Atlanteans were holed up in one city. Kim Kardashian could have been a better negotiator in comparison, so I'm not surprised Namor didn't take her role seriously.

Again, is Atlantean politics, religion and geography common knowledge? Or would it be kept somewhere in an Atlantean library to which Susan would have no easy access? I have my suspicions. Her role was largely ceremonial, she wasn't going to argue minutae about which territory who should have. She thought they could be adults and hash out their own problems, I guess it wasn't true.

I'm thinking we are disagreeing on what's expected of Namor as a king. He's not a figurehead -- he has real power and real responsibilities over and for the Atlanteans. He has real responsibilities and connections to his god, Neptune. He has supernatural responsibilities. He has the continued survival of his people on his shoulders. And the Atlanteans have decidedly different expectations of their monarch than your average American has of their president. You could see that in what Andromeda wanted.

So you're saying his responsibilities to his people make him rashly and (very possibly) needlessly butcher people during a peaceful negotiation based on information that is, at most, a MAYBE, when they are no immediate threat to him or his people. Ok... his society has serious problems then, in my opinion.

[Wren]

It is if you think the ancient evidence is supported by your present evidence. They looked and acted like the same evil basterds that he'd been warned against.

The "they looked" part is irrelevant. They acted suspicious, at most, not evil.

But they don't remember. Again, I can't expect the UK to surrender London, just because I read somewhere that my prehistoric ancestors lived there. And yes, it does imply they are Evil, if they were Evil and they want to set up shop in lands blighted by Evil. Nor does it suggest they are good, if they want the lands occupied by Atlantean barbarians.

No one asked them to surrender their capital, they were asking for abandoned places and access to holy sites, basically the same as for example Palestine asks from Israel. Like I said they could be asking for those lands based on their ancient history not on "we want the most evil land you have!". It's not enough evidence to start a war over.

It's not normal for any hidden society. You don't see hidden jungle tribes demanding Aztec monuments or large tracts of jungle, when they are discovered.

Well they probably would if they didn't think anyone was living there and felt that they had the man-power to take it. But you're forgetting that these undersea societies have absurdly long memories, the societies you're talking about would even remember that those places were once theirs.

And had they chosen, they could have remained hidden. But they didn't. They chose to have Susan announce their presence.

? Why would they choose to remain hidden? They were found, to remain hidden, they would have had to ask Susan to lie to "her" society about their existence. That's stupid and pointless. They announced that they were here and they were friendly and Susan could call on them, that's basically what anyone with any sense would do.

There's no reason for Susan to ask for those places, or any places, for the Old Atlanteans -- especially since she's clearly clueless about Namor's Atlanteans. That's all on the Old Atlanteans. And yes, I expect 'good' countries NOT to covet their neighbors lands -- it usually leads to war. I'm sure the Native Americans would have been much happier if the Europeans had NOT decided to expand into all those lands that were just sitting around 'unused.'

Susan didn't ask for those places, the OA did, I never said otherwise. They're coveting land that no one is using because they have an absurdly small amount. I'm sorry I'm not going to say that's somehow evil. The Europeans in NA is a bad example exactly because they killed the people who lived there. The OA aren't doing that or suggesting to do that.

It goes to show that Namor was right. They haven't changed. They are the same predatory greedy basterds. It doesn't matter if Reed lied to them -- they could have gone to each other and settled things peaceable amongst themselves, but they didn't. They chose to believe an outsider and go to war over land.

I think the bigger bastard is the one who tries to kill a peaceful negotiation party based on shaky evidence of possibly them being unfriendly. They fell for a trick (and negotiating with someone who has already decided to steal from you is kind of pointless, it's either accept it or be at war), Namor just didn't bother doing his full research.

[Rheged]

Susan didn't ask for those places, the OA did, I never said otherwise. They're coveting land that noart one is using because they have an absurdly small amount. I'm sorry I'm not going to say that's somehow evil. The Europeans in NA is a bad example exactly because they killed the people who lived there. The OA aren't doing that or suggesting to do that.

Well, SOMEONE asked for those places. This is what you said and what I responded to.

The OA didn't personally go and demand territory, and I don't think they asked Susan to do so on their behalf.

And the Europeans and the Native Americans is the most on target example in this conversation. The Europeans didn't just show up and start killing. They negotiated first (sound familiar?). Got their foot in the door and were allowed to use some places and 'traded' for some places. From there, things got ugly. Just like you keep saying, they wanted land that didn't belong to them, and to their eyes wasn't being used, so they could expand, instead of being stuck in the small areas they lived in at the time.

And then, of course, just like the Old Kings, they turned on each other (France, Britain, Spain), so they could lay claim to bigger parts of land that didn't belong to them.

And sorry, I'm out the door again. Busy weekend. I'll catch up later.

[Wren]

Well, SOMEONE asked for those places. This is what you said and what I responded to.

Sorry it's really not clear, what I meant was, that it wasn't like they asked Susan to ask for territory. Yes they demanded territory when Susan gave them the opportunity, thinking that Namor wouldn't have a problem with it since there is such an absurd amount of it. Namor agreed to the meeting so from the beginning the OA were led to believe that he was OK with sharing, except he never was, and just used it as a trap.

And the Europeans and the Native Americans is the most on target example in this conversation. The Europeans didn't just show up and start killing. They negotiated first (sound familiar?). Got their foot in the door and were allowed to use some places and 'traded' for some places. From there, things got ugly. Just like you keep saying, they wanted land that didn't belong to them, and to their eyes wasn't being used, so they could expand, instead of being stuck in the small areas they lived in at the time.

And then, of course, just like the Old Kings, they turned on each other (France, Britain, Spain), so they could lay claim to bigger parts of land that didn't belong to them.

And sorry, I'm out the door again. Busy weekend. I'll catch up later.

It's not really a good example. The Europeans had a reasonably large (and ever-increasing via colonialization) population. Although the Natives had no way of knowing it, Namor can confidently say that's not the case. The Old Atlanteans don't seem to have any superior technology and their population is absurdly small and there's no reason to think that it would grow much faster than Namor's.

A better example would be, the Natives welcomed like... 3 ships, and exactly that, to their land (without later landing parties, and without smallpox), and gave them sufficient land to expand into. Moreover, the area between where the Natives live and where the Europeans live, is another continent in itself. Hell they each have a continent, and there's still 5 left over that have small or no population at all. That's the sort of scale they're talking about.

Based on that, I'd still say the Natives should give the Europeans a reasonable amount of land.

But again, either way even if he says NO it doesn't give him a reason to kill them.

[Rheged]

Sorry it's really not clear, what I meant was, that it wasn't like they asked Susan to ask for territory. Yes they demanded territory when Susan gave them the opportunity, thinking that Namor wouldn't have a problem with it since there is such an absurd amount of it. Namor agreed to the meeting so from the beginning the OA were led to believe that he was OK with sharing, except he never was, and just used it as a trap.

No. No country thinks that way. If they didn't think Namor would have a problem with it, they wouldn't have even have asked. They'd have just moved onto it. They KNEW Namor, and any country, would have a problem with it. They certainly would have had a problem if the Lemurians or the barbarians or Tamara's people wanted to simply take some of the territory around their city. They certainly had an issue with their own folks wanting more of their city / lands.

It's not really a good example. The Europeans had a reasonably large (and ever-increasing via colonialization) population. Although the Natives had no way of knowing it, Namor can confidently say that's not the case. The Old Atlanteans don't seem to have any superior technology and their population is absurdly small and there's no reason to think that it would grow much faster than Namor's.

O_o

Not at all. We've seen the Old Kings have ships and tanks, they have universal communicators, and they have long distance communicators and weapons as well as long term breathing devices -- these aren't primitives. We've absolute NO idea what the population of the Old Atlanteans is, except that they were living in one city. We've also no idea what their population rate is like, or if, like plenty of sea life, it expands to fit the resources / living areas. We also know they are not mammals, of the single offspring type, like Namor's people, but appear to be evolved from fish and crustaceans and eels, all of which lay a multitude of eggs, so it's far more likely they breed like rabbits.

A better example would be, the Natives welcomed like... 3 ships, and exactly that, to their land (without later landing parties, and without smallpox), and gave them sufficient land to expand into. Moreover, the area between where the Natives live and where the Europeans live, is another continent in itself. Hell they each have a continent, and there's still 5 left over that have small or no population at all. That's the sort of scale they're talking about.

Based on that, I'd still say the Natives should give the Europeans a reasonable amount of land.

But again, either way even if he says NO it doesn't give him a reason to kill them.

Seriously? I'd love to see you make this argument to a Native American. I'm sorry, but given the REALITY, and not some hypothetical wishful Utopian society, that's simply a ridiculous statement to make. The Native Americans were utterly decimated by the Europeans, who even without small pox, continually wanted more of that 'unused' land. They actually did welcome 3 ships. But as is the nature of every country, they wanted more and it led to disaster for the Native Americans. And that's one reason why countries don't give up land, unless they are forced to by losing a war.

I watch the news almost daily about the Chinese trying to take two small rocky uninhabited islands in Okinawa from Japan. China, the biggest country in the world, with vast tracts of unused land, but that's not enough. They want these two tiny rocks from one of the smallest countries in the world. THAT is the nature of countries - all countries. And the idea that the Atlanteans are somehow less civilized than any other country because they don't just give up their territory, is nonsense. You've yet to list even one country that does this.

[Wren]

No. No country thinks that way. If they didn't think Namor would have a problem with it, they wouldn't have even have asked. They'd have just moved onto it. They KNEW Namor, and any country, would have a problem with it. They certainly would have had a problem if the Lemurians or the barbarians or Tamara's people wanted to simply take some of the territory around their city. They certainly had an issue with their own folks wanting more of their city / lands.

That's an unnecessary declaration of war. Again, NAMOR was the one who apparently agreed to meet them and talk about it, we don't see them asking for it out of hand. They had reason to believe he would be open to the idea.

Not at all. We've seen the Old Kings have ships and tanks, they have universal communicators, and they have long distance communicators and weapons as well as long term breathing devices -- these aren't primitives. We've absolute NO idea what the population of the Old Atlanteans is, except that they were living in one city. We've also no idea what their population rate is like, or if, like plenty of sea life, it expands to fit the resources / living areas. We also know they are not mammals, of the single offspring type, like Namor's people, but appear to be evolved from fish and crustaceans and eels, all of which lay a multitude of eggs, so it's far more likely they breed like rabbits.

I said they don't seem to have superior technology not that they're primitives.

The city is based on a thermal vent in a small lake, it's not hard to assume their population is equivalent to at most, a large human city. You have a good point that their population may expand more rapidly, but again, they have entire ocean to share, and since it's the same species as last time it probably isn't a case of them simply breeding uncontrollably far far faster than Namor's people could keep up with.

Seriously? I'd love to see you make this argument to a Native American. I'm sorry, but given the REALITY, and not some hypothetical wishful Utopian society, that's simply a ridiculous statement to make. The Native Americans were utterly decimated by the Europeans, who even without small pox, continually wanted more of that 'unused' land. They actually did welcome 3 ships. But as is the nature of every country, they wanted more and it led to disaster for the Native Americans. And that's one reason why countries don't give up land, unless they are forced to by losing a war.

I watch the news almost daily about the Chinese trying to take two small rocky uninhabited islands in Okinawa from Japan. China, the biggest country in the world, with vast tracts of unused land, but that's not enough. They want these two tiny rocks from one of the smallest countries in the world. THAT is the nature of countries - all countries. And the idea that the Atlanteans are somehow less civilized than any other country because they don't just give up their territory, is nonsense. You've yet to list even one country that does this.

It's not a utopian society I'm talking about, I'm saying that the scale is so massively out of whack the scenario no longer fits.

Namor cannot populate or even defend his territory, simply because there is so much of it. He owns it because no other people existed who want it.
In this case he can either learn to share or make the moral decision to kill everyone else off because sharing the planet is too frightening a prospect.

[Rheged]

Hmmmm. I'd missed your reply Wren. Will try to get back to that in the next day or so.

But more in the appreciation vein ... it appears Marvel didn't cut Namor's appearances in the Marvel Knights Inhumans motion comic DVD! They way they've been going, I thought they would but here he is, in full arrogant mode ... or is he?




Will definitely be picking this up at some point, now.