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  1. #2581
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iangould View Post
    So while you're complaining that it'd be unfair for you to pay for other people's health care, other people are paying for your health care?
    I don't agree with that either....let's take a big step back and look at history...the concept of "health insurance" has really only been around for 50-60 years....we, as a civilization, were getting by before "insurance"....I honestly feel the whole system is broken and only benefits the PTB in the insurance and medical supply indsutries...its like a bunch of old dudes sat in a room and figured "hey, we need a way to make some money off of people being sick and we'll trick them into thinking they need this...and them make them pay anyway"
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  2. #2582
    CotM Member Puma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    I don't agree with that either....let's take a big step back and look at history...the concept of "health insurance" has really only been around for 50-60 years....we, as a civilization, were getting by before "insurance"....I honestly feel the whole system is broken and only benefits the PTB in the insurance and medical supply indsutries...its like a bunch of old dudes sat in a room and figured "hey, we need a way to make some money off of people being sick and we'll trick them into thinking they need this...and them make them pay anyway"
    average lifespan 100 years ago in the US (prior to standardized medical practices and, definitely, before medical insurance) 1912

    Men 51.5 Women 55.9/ 2012 Men 78.2 Women 75.6

    People couldn't afford medical care so they died. Yeah, that's getting by.
    Last edited by Puma; 07-05-2012 at 08:23 AM.
    What have I always believed? That, on the whole, and by and large, if a person lived properly, not according to what any priests said, but according to what seemed decent and honest inside, then it would, at the end, more or less, turn out ok.

    "In 1996, I was 36. And you're still a frothing moonbat." ~Paradox

  3. #2583
    Hey, brother. Matt Algren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winslow View Post
    It's called living in a community.

    When you're sick, the healthy fella has your back.

    It's not that hard
    It's disappointing (if unsurprising) that we keep having to have this conversation. It's a very basic principle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Puma View Post
    average lifespan 100 years ago in the US (prior to standardized medical practices and, definitely, before medical insurance) 1912

    Men 51.5 Women 55.9/ 2012 Men 78.2 Women 75.6

    People couldn't afford medical care so they died. Yeah, that's getting by.
    Not to mention the fact that medical care back then was pretty much "yep, we'll have to amputate." Quadruple bypass surgeries, X-Rays, vaccines, antibiotics, and expensive life-saving medications weren't part of the equation.

    (Neither were huge corporations built on the concept of profiting on people's poor health, but I digress...)
    Last edited by Matt Algren; 07-05-2012 at 08:30 AM.

  4. #2584
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Algren View Post
    Not to mention the fact that medical care back then was pretty much "yep, we'll have to amputate." Quadruple bypass surgeries, X-Rays, vaccines, antibiotics, and expensive life-saving medications weren't part of the equation.

    (Neither were huge corporations built on the concept of profiting on people's poor health, but I digress
    ...)
    but do we have to tolerate one (evil profiteering insurance companies) to have the other (medical advancements)?

    I also think that a big problem we (society, Americans in particular) have is promoting a healthy culture....put down the Mickey Ds and the Carls Jr...eat a carrot ya fattie
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  5. #2585
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Algren View Post
    It's disappointing (if unsurprising) that we keep having to have this conversation. It's a very basic principle.
    because no one has given a straight answer

    if someone is barely getting by (like eating ramen noodles every night and having to call out of work because they can't put gas in their car), how are they expected to have MORE money come out of their paycheck for insurance because the government mandates it?
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  6. #2586
    Hey, brother. Matt Algren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    but do we have to tolerate one (evil profiteering insurance companies) to have the other (medical advancements)?
    Of course not. That's why many progressives would prefer a Medicare-for-all system in place of Obamacare.

  7. #2587
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    because no one has given a straight answer

    if someone is barely getting by (like eating ramen noodles every night and having to call out of work because they can't put gas in their car), how are they expected to have MORE money come out of their paycheck for insurance because the government mandates it?
    What you miss is that t if they are that poor someone else is picking up the tab,
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  8. #2588
    Hey, brother. Matt Algren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    because no one has given a straight answer

    if someone is barely getting by (like eating ramen noodles every night and having to call out of work because they can't put gas in their car), how are they expected to have MORE money come out of their paycheck for insurance because the government mandates it?
    Pay attention. Those people's insurance is heavily subsidized.

  9. #2589
    CotM Member Puma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    I also think that a big problem we (society, Americans in particular) have is promoting a healthy culture....put down the Mickey Ds and the Carls Jr...eat a carrot ya fattie
    Too simplistic.

    The US, and increasingly other developed countries, are facing an obesity problem. Yes part of this is due to diet, but it is also due to a sedentary lifestyle- we work at sit down type jobs or those that require little manual labor and then go home and sit on the couch watch tv or playing video games, physical education has been reduced in schools, the layout of cities and suburbs does not encourage walking, many inner urban residential areas have limited access to fresh produce and fruits, 'prepared' packaged meals are cheaper than healthier meals that require someone to prepare and cook, and, finally, the ease of purchasing an unhealthy meal at a fast food place and super-sizing it because it is perceived as getting "more for your money".

    It is much more than "drop the french fry and pick up a carrot" and needs to be addressed as a whole and not just piecemeal.
    What have I always believed? That, on the whole, and by and large, if a person lived properly, not according to what any priests said, but according to what seemed decent and honest inside, then it would, at the end, more or less, turn out ok.

    "In 1996, I was 36. And you're still a frothing moonbat." ~Paradox

  10. #2590
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    What you miss is that t if they are that poor someone else is picking up the tab,
    other people shouldn't HAVE TO is my point..I feel like Im being misunderstood here

    I view it as product...I buy something, I pay for it...if Im in line at the grocery store and im buying milk, I pay for it...if they guy behind me in line doesn't have enough money for milk, that is his problem...I should not be stopped by store employees and be told "hey. you have to help pay for that guys milk"
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  11. #2591
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puma View Post
    Too simplistic.

    The US, and increasingly other developed countries, are facing an obesity problem. Yes part of this is due to diet, but it is also due to a sedentary lifestyle- we work at sit down type jobs or those that require little manual labor and then go home and sit on the couch watch tv or playing video games, physical education has been reduced in schools, the layout of cities and suburbs does not encourage walking, many inner urban residential areas have limited access to fresh produce and fruits, 'prepared' packaged meals are cheaper than healthier meals that require someone to prepare and cook, and, finally, the ease of purchasing an unhealthy meal at a fast food place and super-sizing it because it is perceived as getting "more for your money".

    It is much more than "drop the french fry and pick up a carrot" and needs to be addressed as a whole and not just piecemeal.
    I couldn't agree more....I have a number of friends who are attempting to grow their own gardens, buy local produce, and just generally live better....I mean, they flood the hood with cheap processed meals to keep the people eating unhealthy
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  12. #2592
    CotM Member Puma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    other people shouldn't HAVE TO is my point..I feel like Im being misunderstood here

    I view it as product...I buy something, I pay for it...if Im in line at the grocery store and im buying milk, I pay for it...if they guy behind me in line doesn't have enough money for milk, that is his problem...I should not be stopped by store employees and be told "hey. you have to help pay for that guys milk"
    So...if you choose not to have medical insurance and are in an accident, or develop a severe condition (cancer, stage 1), and do not have enough money available to pay for treatments I can safely toss you to the side of the road?

    and now let's imagine it is your child;it's okay to let them die when treatment exists?
    What have I always believed? That, on the whole, and by and large, if a person lived properly, not according to what any priests said, but according to what seemed decent and honest inside, then it would, at the end, more or less, turn out ok.

    "In 1996, I was 36. And you're still a frothing moonbat." ~Paradox

  13. #2593
    CotM Member Puma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    I couldn't agree more....I have a number of friends who are attempting to grow their own gardens, buy local produce, and just generally live better....I mean, they flood the hood with cheap processed meals to keep the people eating unhealthy
    Who is this "they"?

    not trying to be a jerk here but I am getting a lot of 'victim' from your posts.
    What have I always believed? That, on the whole, and by and large, if a person lived properly, not according to what any priests said, but according to what seemed decent and honest inside, then it would, at the end, more or less, turn out ok.

    "In 1996, I was 36. And you're still a frothing moonbat." ~Paradox

  14. #2594
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puma View Post
    So...if you choose not to have medical insurance and are in an accident, or develop a severe condition (cancer, stage 1), and do not have enough money available to pay for treatments I can safely toss you to the side of the road?


    you should have the choice to....if you WANT to bear the burden of someone elses medical care, fine...but there should be an option

    and now let's imagine it is your child;it's okay to let them die when treatment exists?
    this is a trap question mean to elicit an emotional response...and I don't have a kid, so I can't fairly or adequately answer this
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  15. #2595
    Elder Member Charles RB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren View Post
    But payoffs that exceed the cost? Probably not. Taxpayer-funded stadiums usually result in a net loss to the city.
    Ow. When you brought up stadiums, I was thinking "the sports matches bring in money and that will benefit the state/city/whatever government" - if it doesn't, I don't know why they bother.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone else to come out of their pocket for my welfare
    They do. It's called your car insurance.

    Also Veteran's Affairs.

    And the insurance on your home.
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