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  1. #61
    Junior Member troy2g1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4PointOh View Post
    Consider that Wonder Woman is not just a fictional character, but also a corporate product. Then consider how women are viewed in American society in particular, the roles they are expected to play or adhere to, what femininity is perceived to be, to whom a Wonder Woman product would be marketed, and what images must be marketed for maximum profits.

    I think it explains a lot regarding Wonder Woman and the types of stories and interactions she's permitted to have or not have. Just a theory.
    Has DC ever tried to portray Wonder Woman as that powerful? Not really, no.

    Maybe changing HOW they produce her books will broaden her reading audience.

  2. #62
    Member arrowsonthemyscira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    [Devilīs advocate]

    I dunno... can she?
    Iīve never seen her do it, how do you know she can?

    [/Devilīs advocate]


    Why do Wonder fans always get up in arms whenever someone asks for a demonstration of power or two?
    Itīs as if flexing her muscles was somehow beneath her mystical-magical-majestical perfect princess aura who solves all things through "coming together in mutual understanding".

    Iīm sorry, Iīm so tired of "coming together in mutual understanding" my hair hurts.
    I wanna see her lift a frigginī mountain.
    You know when was the last time she lifted a frigginīmountain?
    George Perez was drawing her.
    Yeah, maybe that was the last time. But if she's done it before... why do it again? She doesn't have to lift a mountain every year just to prove she can do it.

    In Ms. Simone's run so far we've seen her stand up to a Green Lantern (she ended up solving her problem through "mutual understanding, sure) but she took her licks as good as any male hero would. She's fought a clone of the Doomsday monster that killed Superman. She fought Superman to a standstill before she killed Max Lord to get him to snap out of the mind controlled trance he was in. She slayed Medusa. She's stood toe-to-toe with Ares. And lets not forget the battle with D'grth in Ends of the Earth.

    I don't think that Diana's stories over the years have been short on tough opponents. Just the same, I don't think she has to beat something up every issue to make for a good story.
    Last edited by arrowsonthemyscira; 09-24-2009 at 12:39 PM.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4PointOh View Post
    Consider that Wonder Woman is not just a fictional character, but also a corporate product. Then consider how women are viewed in American society in particular, the roles they are expected to play or adhere to, what femininity is perceived to be, to whom a Wonder Woman product would be marketed, and what images must be marketed for maximum profits.

    I think it explains a lot regarding Wonder Woman and the types of stories and interactions she's permitted to have or not have. Just a theory.
    This can perhaps explain her appearances in other titles but not in her own title. I agree with Eliseu Gouveia that it tends to be more talk than action.

  4. #64
    Son of Baldwin 4PointOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by troy2g1 View Post
    Has DC ever tried to portray Wonder Woman as that powerful? Not really, no.

    Maybe changing HOW they produce her books will broaden her reading audience.
    They're not thinking about the comic. At all. They are thinking about licensing, which is where Wonder Woman is ridiculously lucrative. They're thinking about films, etc. And really, strong female characters, even in films, are not as popular as they used to be when Ripley and the woman from Terminator were around. Nowadays, "strong" women are largely viewed as undesirable and function only as sidekicks. It's the "weak" woman that get the spotlight and attention--oddly, from men AND women (see Twilight).
    Son of Baldwin: The literary, sociopolitical, psychosexual, pop cultural blog. Live from Bedford-Stuyvesant.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by arrowsonthemyscira View Post
    Yeah, maybe that was the last time. But if she's done it before... why do it again? She doesn't have to lift a mountain every year just to prove she can do it.

    In Ms. Simone's run so far we've seen her stand up to a Green Lantern (she ended up solving her problem through "mutual understanding, sure) but she took her licks as good as any male hero would. She's fought a clone of the Doomsday monster that killed Superman. She fought Superman to a standstill before she killed Max Lord to get him to snap out of the mind controlled trance he was in. She slayed Medusa. She's stood toe-to-toe with Ares. And lets not forget the battle with D'grth in Ends of the Earth.

    I don't think that Diana's stories over the years have been short on tough opponents. Just the same, I don't think she has to beat something up every issue to make for a good story.

    "Every issue"?
    If only!
    Like I said, her most formidable feat of strenght?
    Lift a mountain-sized boulder during George Perez. 20 YEARS ago.
    Her most formidable feat of speed?
    Being dragged by Jesse Quick into the speed force, 15 YEARS ago.

    My nieces werenīt even born by then.

    15 years... GOD!, yes, I think we are WAY overdue for a mountain lifting or two.
    Unless of course Superman and Black Adam fans think that is too threatning.
    God knows we canīt let Superman and Black Adam fans feel threatened by the idea of a woman being capable of anything, next thing you know, theyīre gonna want to vote.

  6. #66
    DC FAN GLaDOS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    [Devilīs advocate]

    I dunno... can she?
    Iīve never seen her do it, how do you know she can?

    [/Devilīs advocate]


    Why do Wonder fans always get up in arms whenever someone asks for a demonstration of power or two?
    Itīs as if flexing her muscles was somehow beneath her mystical-magical-majestical perfect princess aura who solves all things through "coming together in mutual understanding".

    Iīm sorry, Iīm so tired of "coming together in mutual understanding" my hair hurts.
    I wanna see her lift a frigginī mountain.
    You know when was the last time she lifted a frigginīmountain?
    George Perez was drawing her.
    Hey everybody! This is my first post here. ANYways, I just had to point out real quick that as far as shows of strength go during the Genocide arc when WW busted into the Society's hideout I believe, she tore apart a tank like it was nothing that was said to be able to like withstand a nuclear bomb or something then in the same issue I think it was she bare handidly tore down the sky scraper all without breaking a sweat. While I agree she's not ALWAYS shown commiting amazing feats of strength IMO these were two pretty awesome demonstrations of her physical ability. That's just my two cents worth, continue

  7. #67
    Member arrowsonthemyscira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GLaDOS View Post
    Hey everybody! This is my first post here. ANYways, I just had to point out real quick that as far as shows of strength go during the Genocide arc when WW busted into the Society's hideout I believe, she tore apart a tank like it was nothing that was said to be able to like withstand a nuclear bomb or something then in the same issue I think it was she bare handidly tore down the sky scraper all without breaking a sweat. While I agree she's not ALWAYS shown commiting amazing feats of strength IMO these were two pretty awesome demonstrations of her physical ability. That's just my two cents worth, continue
    Exactly GLaDOS, thank you and welcome to the boards! She is capable of amazing feets of strength. She doesn't have to lift mountains. I mean really, how many occassions can there be where one needs to lift a mountain? We see her perform great feats of strength all the time. Certainly not every 15-20 years.

    Since this thread is about Ends of the Earth I'll point out once again her fight against D'grth. I think that was pretty impressive. Could Superman or Black Adam beat him too, yes.

    Why are Diana's feats of strength not impressive to you, is the my question? I've pointed out several items that I think show her strength and durability, so has GLaDOS... What is not impressive about fighting Superman to a standstill? What is not impressive about ripping apart a nuke resistent tank? What are you really unhappy with when it comes to her level of strength?
    Last edited by arrowsonthemyscira; 09-24-2009 at 01:34 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by arrowsonthemyscira View Post
    Exactly GLaDOS, thank you and welcome to the boards! She is capable of amazing feets of strength. She doesn't have to lift mountains. I mean really, how many occassions can there be where one needs to lift a mountain? We see her perform great feats of strength all the time. Certainly not every 15-20 years.

    Since this thread is about Ends of the Earth I'll point out once again her fight against D'grth. I think that was pretty impressive. Could Superman or Black Adam beat him too, yes.

    Why are Diana's feats of strength not impressive to you, is the my question? I've pointed out several items that I think show her strength and durability, so has GLaDOS... What is not impressive about fighting Superman to a standstill? What is not impressive about ripping apart a nuke resistent tank? What are you really unhappy with when it comes to her level of strength?

    Iīm gonna be honest.
    I donīt even remember who D'grth was.
    Iīm sorry, but the battle was so epic and earthshattering it vanished from my brain just a couple months down the road.

    What is so impressive about lifting a mountain?
    Itīs am emblematic image that stays with you.
    You can go back 20 years and remember that moment.
    Itīs not open to debate and refute.

    Unlike nuke-resistant tanks.
    How do they resist nukes, do they have forcefields? Were the forcefield up?
    Are they made of special substances? What sort of special substances, ceramic pannels? Ceramic pannels can withstand the heat of orbital reentry but crack like glass.

    Unlike fighting Superman to a standstill.
    Did he job to her? Did she job to him?Was it smart to use birds/put their lives at risk to delay a man capable of moving at lightspeed? Can you really sneak up on a man capable of hearing atoms scrape?etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.

    I want unquestionable feats of strenght, speed and skill.
    Coming together in mutual understanding? She does that EVERY. SINGLE. MONTH.
    Lift a mountain-sized boulder? Follow Jesse Quick into the Speed force?
    They hadnīt even invented cellphones last time she did that.
    Last edited by Eliseu Gouveia; 09-24-2009 at 01:54 PM.

  9. #69

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    I do not have anything critical to say. Sorry.

    I enjoyed both arcs. I look forward to future stories.

    This is the best it has been in a long, long time.

    You saw the art during Byrnes run in a recent thread; it literally made me feel ill. The story was not much better.

    I say good job to you, Gail.

  10. #70
    ShaunN
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    I generally agree with the sentiment that Diana is rarely portrayed to be as powerful as she should be. We know that she is in Superman's class of strength; we know that she has overpowered Supergirl and been a match for Power Girl. I think that we need to see that level of power more often and more consistently. It has something to do about giving the character the respect she deserves.

    I still plan to re-read the whole "Ends of the Earth" saga and come back with a helpful constructive critique!

  11. #71
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    Gail, I want to apologise if I sounded too harsh, mean or abrasive in my posts, none of it is directed at you or your stories which I have enjoyed immensely.
    Itīs just that, as a WW fan who wants to see an unquestionably powerfull heroine ... 15-20 years is a long time.

  12. #72
    Wheres my invisible Tiger Spiffy's Avatar
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    Oh, I also think she could occasionally be shown as more powerful (wasn't there a bit in Trinity where she held up an entire BUILDING?).

    That said, I don't think anything on that scale was necessary for Ends of the Earth. Sword and Sorcery type stuff doesn't play into large displays of power as much as people assume--its more typically about smaller battles close up and intense. A big battle is a culmination of things, at the very end, but typically the journey there is very intimate and small scale.

  13. #73
    Member arrowsonthemyscira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaunN View Post
    I generally agree with the sentiment that Diana is rarely portrayed to be as powerful as she should be. We know that she is in Superman's class of strength; we know that she has overpowered Supergirl and been a match for Power Girl. I think that we need to see that level of power more often and more consistently. It has something to do about giving the character the respect she deserves.

    I still plan to re-read the whole "Ends of the Earth" saga and come back with a helpful constructive critique!
    I just don't understand how beating people up and lifting moutains gains a person, super hero or not, respect. I think that in the real world we would call that fear, not respect. I find the approach that we see with Wonder Woman a lot more respectful.

    That's what I really like about what's going on in Wonder Woman these days. Diana (through virtue of her writer(s)) knows when to punch a nuke, level a skyscraper, or rip apart a tank and when to turn and enemy into a friend.

    You don't have to make your enemies bleed or bruise to bring them to their knees. Diana has other abilities/tools to draw on. Like her Lasso of Hestia, it turned Captain Nazi into a bawling baby. Can Power Girl do anything like that? Nope, she just punches stuff and fries it with heat vision. (Nothing against PeeGee, I actually really like her, I'm just saying.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiffy View Post
    Oh, I also think she could occasionally be shown as more powerful (wasn't there a bit in Trinity where she held up an entire BUILDING?).

    That said, I don't think anything on that scale was necessary for Ends of the Earth. Sword and Sorcery type stuff doesn't play into large displays of power as much as people assume--its more typically about smaller battles close up and intense. A big battle is a culmination of things, at the very end, but typically the journey there is very intimate and small scale.
    I really think that you make a good point here, Spiffy. S&S isn't always about holding up a skyscraper (such as in Trinity). The battle at the end was the big payoff. That's another thing I really like about Wonder Woman, how the character can so easily fit into so many disparate genres. She's great as a super heroine, she's great in the classical setting of Greek myth, and she's great when cast alongside barbarians like Beowulf in a S&S type story; heck, you can even throw in some sci-fi stuff (see her trip to the Khund homeworld) and she maybe seems a little out of place visually, but none of it phases her.
    Last edited by arrowsonthemyscira; 09-24-2009 at 02:54 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by arrowsonthemyscira View Post
    I just don't understand how beating people up and lifting moutains gains a person, super hero or not, respect. I think that in the real world we would call that fear, not respect. I find the approach that we see with Wonder Woman a lot more respectful.

    That's what I really like about what's going on in Wonder Woman these days. Diana (through virtue of her writer(s)) knows when to punch a nuke, level a skyscraper, or rip apart a tank and when to turn and enemy into a friend.

    You don't have to make your enemies bleed or bruise to bring them to their knees. Diana has other abilities/tools to draw on. Like her Lasso of Hestia, it turned Captain Nazi into a bawling baby. Can Power Girl do anything like that? Nope, she just punches stuff and fries it with heat vision. (Nothing against PeeGee, I actually really like her, I'm just saying.)
    Look at it this way.
    You know that Wonder Woman is capable of making people come together in mutual understanding.

    But imagine that EVERY single issue in the last 20 years, all she did was cave the baddies head in. No talk, no dialogue, just go in, "Crash!" "Bam!", "Pow!", done.

    Sure, intelectualy you would know that she could make people come together in mutual understanding. because you would remember that example from 20 years ago.

    But emotionaly, the fact that she never used that route would give you great disatisfaction.

    Same thing.

    Intelectualy, I know that she can lift mountains.
    But emotionaly?
    Iīm starving.

    Itīs like reading a Spider Man comic where he uses the bus to move around in the city.
    Last edited by Eliseu Gouveia; 09-24-2009 at 03:00 PM.

  15. #75
    Junior Member theblock's Avatar
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    I did enjoy the Ends of the Earth ark, even though I wasn't familiar with Stalker at the time but knew DC's Claw as their Conan ripoff before their great implosion. My only question was how were you able to use him still Gail? Didn't another company get rights to him to team up with Red Sonja Chuck Dixon wrote (which didn't end well for him BTW)? I don't know how that works so forgive me.

    Also, the whole time WW is at the Black Horizon she is also seen comatose with Eta, was it meant to be applied that she was astrally traveling to all those fantasy locales? I don't remember it being all that clear that she went inside through her lasso or something. I know of astral traveling from Dungeons and Dragons so I think that's how it would work.

    Any other fantasy elements you'd like to see WW explore Gail? Personally I think it would be cool to see Diana make a trip to Skartaris or maybe even Gemworld if you really wanna get obscure LOL! Also wouldn't it be awesome to see a WW crossover with her teaming up with Red Sonja, see those two interacting would be the most surreal thing ever ! Heck they might actually get along at first...maybe.
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