Beast Vs. Batman

**Acecool** · 09-08-2009, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Pendaran

No, that's how impressive double standards out of your complex about X-person related characters are born. Your basic arguement comes down to "Hank has access" for him using stuff he himself never personally uses. Everything else is dressing it up. Batman has the same level of access to things the JLA have considering he outright kicks in money for their bases besides.

I see what you are saying that if one character gets team equipment, then the other should as well.

However it is equally a double standard to say that one character doesn't even have access to his own home just because he doesn't pay for the stuff in it. Especially when that character is the primary tech guy and does use the tech.

Like I said, the limit should be to the home, where the character physically lives. If the character happens to live on a team base then so much the better for them. Thus it only limits each character to their own abilities and not who they know.

If johnny Storm has prep, does he get kicked out of the Baxter building just because he didn't actually invent the tech? I would say no. He would probably fry himself with some of reed's stuff if he tried to use it so the prep is less useful.

**Pendaran** · 09-08-2009, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Acecool

I see what you are saying that if one character gets team equipment, then the other should as well. (See this is what you call recognizing the other persons argument and validity)

However it is equally a double standard to say that one character doesn't even have access to his own home just because he doesn't pay for the stuff in it. Especially when that character is the primary tech guy and does use the tech.

Like I said, the limit should be to the home, where the character physically lives. If the character happens to live on a team base then so much the better for them. Thus it only limits each character to their own abilities and not who they know.

If johnny Storm has prep, does he get kicked out of the Baxter building just because he didn't actually invent the tech? I would say no. He would probably fry himself with some of reed's stuff if he tried to use it so the prep is less useful.

Your arguement is that Hank gets things he neither designed, nor owns, nor at minimum is even the person who actually routinely flies the thing. Your only justification in light of that amounts to all that is that he has regular access to these things.

Why then does Batman not get all the things he has regular access to? They're down the hallway from the monitor room in a place he is required by his team's organization to spend regular shifts in, on a team he's been retconned as having helped create, and helping to create their headquarters.

Trying to say "well they have to live there" is thin and arbitrary over a basic reasoning of "it's in a place he regularly spends time in."

As a side note, for all that anyone else on the FF could make use of Reed's stuff, extending prep to Johnny Storm is pretty useless anyway.

**Acecool** · 09-08-2009, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Pendaran

As a member of the JLA, the JLA HQ is one of Batman's bases to the point where he does routine stints of time there by himself watching the place as part of a duty roster, so no, this basically seems like a very thin arguement for one standard for the Beast, and a different standard for the guy who needs to lose to him.

Your right, the JLA is one of batman's bases, but not his residence. Even if he spends time on the base for days/weeks/months/years at a time, if you asked him where his home is, he would say gotham, not the base.

It seems like saying that you don't have access to the stuff of your own home, that you've worked on and used because it happens to belong to some one else would also be a double standard. Batman gets his own home with tech he has pilfered from a number of sources, but beast doesn't?

If beast move tomorrow to LA and lived in an apartment working a day job as a nightwatchman, I would say he gets what ever is in his apartment. If batman moved to the JLA watch tower permanently, not a stint, I would say he gets all the toys. If he moved in with the Watcher on the moon and became perfect strangers, I would say he has access to all that tech as well.

**Acecool** · 09-08-2009, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Pendaran

As a side note, for all that anyone else on the FF could make use of Reed's stuff, extending prep to Johnny Storm is pretty useless anyway.

Exactly my point, the Storm wouldn't have a prayer even with prep. It would be useless to him.

**Acecool** · 09-08-2009, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Pendaran

Your arguement is that Hank gets things he neither designed, nor owns, nor at minimum is even the person who actually routinely flies the thing. Your only justification in light of that amounts to all that is that he has regular access to these things.

Yes, regular, as in the current book he appears or normally appears in he has normal access to these things.

Just like batman doesn't in his regular book constantly go to the tower to access whatever tech they have. He uses, regularly, what is in his cave, just like beast, regularly works at the X-mansion.

If you want to really make it fair then, with prep they have to create whatever they bring junkyard wars style from whatever they find in a junkyard.

**Pendaran** · 09-08-2009, 10:40 PM

Your right, the JLA is one of batman's bases, but not his residence.

So, again, your requirement is completely arbitrary.

Your statement for why the Beast can have stuff that doesn't belong to him, nor that he even made, nor that he even is himself the person that actually uses it directly, boils down to that he has regular, plausible access to it.

How does Batman not have regular, plausible access to the JLA's stuff?

Batman gets his own home with tech he has pilfered from a number of sources, but beast doesn't?

You mean the stuff Batman went out of his way to cultivate, gather, buy and build, as opposed to the stuff where Hank... has done none of that with any of it?

See, that's the difference here. Being that there's an actual difference. In one case, one person went out of their way to personally make, gather or own all such things for their own personal resources. The other guy did not.

There are two ways you can go with prep.

One of them is to base it on personal resources development. Which is based on... personal resources. People who go out of their way to have a lot of personal resources, are indeed favoured by this. Like again, a fight where superspeed counts, favours people with superspeed. Reed for instance goes out of his way to constantly make crap to have lying around to use, to the point where there are rooms and boxes full of the junk acknowledged as being Reed's stuff. To the point where he makes secret labs just for himself hidden from the rest of the FF with gateways to alternate dimensions.

The other is to base it on plausible access to things and to ignore that someone basically has nothing to do with a particular thing other than that they happen to sit their ass in it when other people fly it, for example, because hey, they have plausible regular access to where it is. At which point trying to go "but they have to live there" is being arbitrary with no justification. Why do they have to live there? As you've acknowledged, someone can have plausible, regular access without living there, why wouldn't that count?

**Acecool** · 09-08-2009, 11:19 PM

There has the be a middle ground between tying up one character in his own home unable to use his own lab and just straight out having a tech war between one character and all his resources vs. another character and his resources.

As we have agree upon, that would be silly. I don't want all prep fight debates to devolve into this and I don't think you do either. It would be boring. (like flash fights)

I got the idea of using where they live based on their regular books and the stuff they generally have laying around. It is rooted in the idea that each character gets their regular equipment and simply expanding that to the immediate area in which they function in the books of which they are most prominent. Batman has his own book and isn't always at the tower. Beast is pretty much always in the mansion and doesn't have his own book.

The way you are explaining it is that beast isn't allowed to pick up a baseball bat off the ground if he finds one because he didn't design it, buy it, or uses one all that often.

Here is an alternative argument for you to take though. Just in case you'd like to press it.

If beast can't fly the Blackbird, he won't be able to use it in battle. So make the argument that he isn't a good pilot and would probably kill himself if he tried. This means he isn't tied up and gagged, unable to use the things in his immediate area. If what you said is true and he isn't ever seen flying the Blackbird, then you don't have to make the argument that he can't have the Blackbird, simply argue that is isn't a good idea for him to fly it in the first place.

I might agree, just like it wouldn't be a good idea for Johnny to go poking around Reed's stuff before a fight.

I would probably then suggest an alternative prep idea for Beast, or more likely I wouldn't have anymore ideas and agree with you that batman wins.

**Pendaran** · 09-08-2009, 11:46 PM

If you want to really make it fair then, with prep they have to create whatever they bring junkyard wars style from whatever they find in a junkyard.

Yeah! And we could also start requiring that people with superspeed don't get to use it in fights against anyone without it, I mean, that would otherwise be unfair to the people who completely lack of themselves a quality that would let them win in a particular situation.

Like someone with vast personal resources generally being able to win a prep fight.

Your complaint of "fair" is pretty groundless. Batman happens to have gone out of his way to be able to marshall personal resources in a way that Beast hasn't. That's called "why he wins in that situation".

It's like complaining about someone with superspeed having a generally vast advantage on people without.

The way you are explaining it is that beast isn't allowed to pick up a baseball bat off the ground if he finds one because he didn't design it, buy it, or uses one all that often.

In a fight based on his personal resources, you are comparing a baseball bat, to an advanced fighter jet, and feeling this is an equivalent analogy.

Nevermind that again, if your alternative is as long as he has plausible regular access, then Batman stomps more epically by that rationale than he otherwise would have.

The way you are explaining it, regular access to things someone doesn't have as their stuff only counts when you say it does.

As we have agree upon, that would be silly. I don't want all prep fight debates to devolve into this and I don't think you do either. It would be boring. (like flash fights)

I think Batman or Beast having things that in no way are theirs in prep fights based around personal resources is indeed silly.

I especially think trying to say "only this counts as plausible access, not this other plausible access" for trying to argue anything they can plausibly access instead, is even sillier. Plausible access, is plausible access, is plausible access, is plausible access. If you open the door for it, you are left with having to apply it equally to everyone with it, to everything they have access to.

I would prefer not to open the door for it, because it makes prep fights heading into an ultimate direction of "well, Captain America totally has plausible access to Mjolnir. He's on the same team as Thor, he can lift it, and Thor would totally loan it to him if asked."

That's why I stick by what people have as their own shit, and can develop from their own shit.

Beast is pretty much always in the mansion and doesn't have his own book.

He was at the mansion when he wasn't part of the X-men for a long while? He was at the mansion when he was an Avenger for the longest time? He was at the mansion when he was a Defender? He was at the mansion when he was in X-factor? He's at the mansion when he's taking extended leaves of absence to travel the world searching for ways to restore powers to mutants? He's at the mansion when he buggered off to be a part of his mutant science team doing research in their own little place?

Once again, your whole complex about "X-wins" is coming down to some really arbitrary things. He has regular access to the X-men's stuff for being part of the X-men. That is all what you are saying comes down to. There's no difference between that and saying Batman has regular access to the JLA's stuff for being part of the JLA. Because hey, both of these things are true.

You, the guy who goes on about things like Bobby Drake's Icegod powers, are complaining about this otherwise being not fair to Beast. Take that in for a minute.

Yes, Beast is at a disadvantage in a particular kind of fight against someone who has gone out of their way to be good at that kind of fight.

Beast would also be at a disadvantage in a straight fight against Iron Fist, who has gone out of his way to be good at administering kung fu beatdowns.

Should we take away Danny's kung fu training and chi enlightenment so that a fight like that could be fair to Beast?

It would be boring. (like flash fights)

And yet we don't say "well the other guy can have all this extra stuff so that he can win, because otherwise it wouldn't be fair".

**Gordon Smith** · 09-09-2009, 12:00 AM

Just a brief note here:

Not being a big fan of prep-time scenarios turning on which character has access to the biggest friends' list on his Super-heroic Facebook account, I think the issue should be decided like this.

Characters, by default, on solo matches, prep or no prep, don't get access to team resources unless there is a prima facia case that they are the inventors or defacto owners of those resources. Batman can't use the JLA teleporter or other advanced tech as part of his personal arsenal, and he can't call in favors from his pal Superman to bail his ass out of a scenario going sour. Beast doesn't get to use the Blackbird or any advanced tech that might be laying around the X-Mansion this week.

I guess it sucks to be Beast this week, but it'll be Batman's turn to be in the hot seat when he's pitted against a Predator infestation and can't call in the JLA to save Gotham.

**Gordon Smith** · 09-09-2009, 12:02 AM

And let's avoid unduly personalizing the thread. Let's just stick to the topic at hand and we should be fine.

~~Gordon

**HulkSmash666** · 09-09-2009, 01:20 AM

I've always thought Beast hasn't really been fully appreciated.

Theoretically, Beast should be a combination between Spider-Man, Reed Richards and Wolverine, or even Batman to a certain degree.

If written to his full potential, Beast should have a similar power-level to Spider-Man, maybe a fraction slower and no spider-sense or webbing, but still a reasonable challenge in a straight up physical fight.

He should also have the scientific acumen of Reed, with a similar skill set in terms of gadgets/weapons/problem solving. I'm not saying he's as good or as smart as Reed, but he should be comparable if given a degree of prep and the resources at his disposal, whether it be from his own genius, something borrowed from Forge, or something Shi'ar or just laying around the mansion.

Also, when it comes to a physical fight, sure, he's got a Spidey-esque power set, but I'd also like to see more of his "Beast" side, with him going on the occasional beserker rage and giving into his animal instincts, ala Wolverine.

And lastly, when Beast is going into combat, I would like to see him with his own version of a utility belt, ala Batman. This way he can use his physical powers, his intellect, his ferocity and training, as well as coming armed with some kick-ass gadgets of his own design.

That's my two-cents.

**Pendaran** · 09-09-2009, 01:55 AM

Theoretically, Beast should be a combination between Spider-Man, Reed Richards and Wolverine, or even Batman to a certain degree.

He's just fine for what he is really, he doesn't need wanking out past it, which is wayy too common in the field of X-people sometimes. Beast for me is not someone who is going to be as good as the expert paragons of their fields, as it were (brains, superstrength, agility, what have you) but he has a little bit of all of it to bring to the table. He's a superheroic jack of all trades, master of none, as far as his range of capacity. Except as a biologist, I suppose you could argue for, but otherwise, that's what he has going for him.

Which is just fine for me, it means he's almost always useful in some way, even if just to provide assistance, in almost any situation. There's nothing wrong with that Spiderman is more agile, Reed is far more intelligent, and Wolverine is more.. um.. Wolverine.

**HulkSmash666** · 09-09-2009, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by Pendaran

He's just fine for what he is really, he doesn't need wanking out past it, which is wayy too common in the field of X-people sometimes. Beast for me is not someone who is going to be as good as the expert paragons of their fields, as it were (brains, superstrength, agility, what have you) but he has a little bit of all of it to bring to the table. He's a superheroic jack of all trades, master of none, as far as his range of capacity. Except as a biologist, I suppose you could argue for, but otherwise, that's what he has going for him.

Which is just fine for me, it means he's almost always useful in some way, even if just to provide assistance, in almost any situation. There's nothing wrong with that Spiderman is more agile, Reed is far more intelligent, and Wolverine is more.. um.. Wolverine.

I just think it would be nice to see him shine as a serious threat on a battlefield, rather than the relatively overlooked and "weak" combatant as compared to some of his other teammates.

Pretty much all of the original five X-Men are considered "superstars" among the other mutants, yet Beast has no real reputation for being a "beast" on the battlefield.