Sunspot Appreciation

**Samy** · 08-05-2009, 12:44 AM

Sunspot has such potential to be a great leader, but too many writers had him act like a potentially evil, spoiled hedonist, or waste the character in a sidekick role. The only time he tends to lead is when he's evil or misguided.

Roberto was Sam's co-leader in X-Force #20-28

Roberto was Dani's co-leader in Young X-Men #1-12

Also I would call Roberto's time as Black King of the Hellfire Club as neither evil nor misguided. He kept the HFC mostly subdued and from perpetrating much evil for a long sustained period of X-Men history. But I guess proactive prevention isn't as flashy as fisticuffs with the HFC so he doesn't get credited.

**DrNoh** · 08-06-2009, 11:20 AM

I think Sunspot is a capable leader and co-leader. I give him credit for this.

X-FORCE #21 in fact was the book stating an interesting fact about his potential in general, to the point that I personally wonder just why Sunspot was mostly removed from Fabian Nicieza's run with those characters (from the time of NEW MUTANTS onwards).

IMO, Sunspot's co-leadership with Gideon wasn't misguided on Roberto's part, although they were involved in a corporate takeover.

Sunspot was also a capable leader during X-TREME X-MEN.

I haven't read YOUNG X-MEN at all.

For some reason IMO Sunspot joining the Hellfire Club seems part of an ongoing and strange retcon since the 1990's to make the Hellfire Club into some sort of X-Men friendly group when AFAIK their Inner Circle (the White Queen and Donald Pierce in particular) has never really been taken to task for what it did to the Phoenix. Maybe Jean Grey constantly coming back from the dead is supposed to negate from this.

I got the impression that Sunspot's duration at the Hellfire Club in UXM was in effect supposed to temper and be a sort of "flip side" to Sebastian Shaw, with Sage returning to the HFC to help to keep this balance? If this is true, it appears similar to what was stated in X-FORCE #21 about Sunspot's potential compared to Cannonball's potential.

**RolandJP** · 08-06-2009, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by DrNoh

I think Sunspot is a capable leader and co-leader. I give him credit for this.

X-FORCE #21 in fact was the book stating an interesting fact about his potential in general, to the point that I personally wonder just why Sunspot was mostly removed from Fabian Nicieza's run with those characters (from the time of NEW MUTANTS onwards).

IMO, Sunspot's co-leadership with Gideon wasn't misguided on Roberto's part, although they were involved in a corporate takeover.

Sunspot was also a capable leader during X-TREME X-MEN.

I haven't read YOUNG X-MEN at all.

For some reason IMO Sunspot joining the Hellfire Club seems part of an ongoing and strange retcon since the 1990's to make the Hellfire Club into some sort of X-Men friendly group when AFAIK their Inner Circle (the White Queen and Donald Pierce in particular) has never really been taken to task for what it did to the Phoenix. Maybe Jean Grey constantly coming back from the dead is supposed to negate from this.

I got the impression that Sunspot's duration at the Hellfire Club in UXM was in effect supposed to temper and be a sort of "flip side" to Sebastian Shaw, with Sage returning to the HFC to help to keep this balance? If this is true, it appears similar to what was stated in X-FORCE #21 about Sunspot's potential compared to Cannonball's potential.

The subplot was that Roberto was going to try to tame the beast that is/was the Hellfire Club. With Sage being both mentor and agent. After M day and Morrison's run on the X-men most earlier plots were jettisoned.

**SayOcean** · 08-06-2009, 11:43 AM

I wish i coulda seen Morrison bring sunspot on the xmen proper

**Samy** · 08-06-2009, 07:01 PM

Sunspot joining the Hellfire Club seems part of an ongoing and strange retcon since the 1990's to make the Hellfire Club into some sort of X-Men friendly group

Isn't that really the ultimate goal for heroes? To neutralize a threat, or even better, bring it to their side? It would make a massive amount of sense for the X-Men or Roberto to want to make the HFC neutral or even good. It would be an awesome amount of power on their side.

And I would say the evolution began as early as the 1980s, when Storm and Magneto joined the HFC around the time of the Mutant Massacre, in order to try to bring the HFC's massive political power behind the X-Men's purposes. Roberto just took it a step further and actually *did* it by taking control of the HFC instead of just joining it.

**DrNoh** · 08-10-2009, 11:13 AM

Re. Sunspot & the Hellfire Club:

Originally posted by DrNoh:

For some reason IMO Sunspot joining the Hellfire Club seems part of an ongoing and strange retcon since the 1990's to make the Hellfire Club into some sort of X-Men friendly group[...]

Originally posted by Samy:

And I would say the evolution began as early as the 1980s, when Storm and Magneto joined the HFC around the time of the Mutant Massacre, in order to try to bring the HFC's massive political power behind the X-Men's purposes. Roberto just took it a step further and actually *did* it by taking control of the HFC instead of just joining it.

Honestly, I don't have the issues of UXM with Storm co-leading with Magneto as the White King of the Hellfire Club. This plotline is another example and parallel showing how many of Chris Claremont's newer X-Books work was based off of his older ideas.

To my (limited) knowledge and IMO, placing Storm in the Hellfire Club was also done:

1. As a continuation of Storm's power and leadership upgrade as a sort of "Jean Grey replacement" in the X-Books back when death was permanent in comics (before Jean's 1980's return).

2. In order to show Storm in HFC costume.

Both of these things happened to Jean Grey prior to her most famous death due to the Hellfire Club meddling in her life.

Also, Chris Claremont was apparently not adverse to the idea of naming women "Warlords" (M'rin), "Princes" (the Viper) or "Kings" (Storm in the HFC).

IMO Sage was sent back to the Hellfire Club to take her away from Bishop.

My earlier point was that it was during the 1990's that anyone from the Hellfire Club would be deemed trustworthy enough to teach the next generation of X-Men, and children at that, with access to the X-Men's resouces. And this role was given to Emma Frost, a Hellfire Club Inner Circle member who directly helped cause Jean's suicide on the Moon.

Emma Frost was a total failure when she taught her would-be personal army, the Hellions and later on with Generation X, yet she has been an X-Man since the 1990's X-Books, with no severance of her HFC ties (AFAIK).

Re. The Hellfire Club -- Friends or Foes? Can They Change?:

Originally posted by Samy:

Isn't that really the ultimate goal for heroes? To neutralize a threat, or even better, bring it to their side? It would make a massive amount of sense for the X-Men or Roberto to want to make the HFC neutral or even good. It would be an awesome amount of power on their side.

With the most notable exception of Donald Pierce and the Reavers, how much outright struggle did the X-Men have with the Hellfire Club after Jean's death? (Aren't the Reavers the personal army of Donald Pierce?) I know the New Mutants and the Hellions had a rivalry of sorts.

AFAIK, the X-Men's relationship with the Hellfire Club seemed fairly neutral from the 1980's onwards to the point that Emma Frost called on them to help her in UXM #280 and they responded.

How realistic (even in comic book terms) is it for one person to change such an old, entrenched, corrupt group like the Hellfire Club??

Do the X-Men really need the Hellfire Club as an ally? And if so, doesn't the Inner Circle at least owe the X-Men an apology for Jean's death, one of the greatest events to happen in the X-Books?? I'm not sure if this question was ever mentioned during Grant Morrison's run, which had Emma Frost begin a romantic association with Cyclops.

Before Chris Claremont left Marvel in the early 1990's, Dr.Val Cooper and Col. Alexi Vazhin were to create a anti-Shadow King group, which was to feature X-Men. This was later recycled into the "Great Powers" team with the XSE II as their soldiers. For a time Dr. Alistair Stewart was a member of this group and he also has ties with Pete Wisdom & MI:13. So it's not as if the X-Men ever lacked ties to powerful political leaders or spies, etc. Special Agent Fred Duncan of the FBI befriended Charles Xavier from the X-Books of decades ago.

**Werehunter** · 08-10-2009, 11:43 AM

I think Marvel really dropped the ball in regards to Sunspot and the Hellfire club. They easily could have had a mini with Sunspot and some of the more wealthy X characters fighting to solidify their control over the Hellfire Club. A good line up would have been, Roberto as Lord Imperial, Warren as the White King, Red Lotus as White Kings, Sage as Black Queen, and Country Ross as the White Queen. All of these characters have some link with the Hellfire club and it's leadership.

**Samy** · 08-10-2009, 01:41 PM

2. In order to show Storm in HFC costume.

I don't recall her ever wearing a HFC outfit. Magneto did have a scene where he was annoyed by the attire and ripped it off, to attend a meeting in his usual guise. Storm always wore just her regular leathers.

it was during the 1990's that anyone from the Hellfire Club would be deemed trustworthy enough to teach the next generation of X-Men

Yes, this was an ongoing development throughout the eighties and nineties, the growing closeness between the X-Men and HFC. The Upstarts were created to replace the HFC at the time because it was realized that the HFC wasn't all that antagonistic anymore.

how much outright struggle did the X-Men have with the Hellfire Club after Jean's death?

Not terribly much. The Dark Phoenix Saga is doubtless the biggest conflict of the time. Then there was a second one in #151-152 but that was much smaller in scope. The HFC was directly responsible for the formation of the New Mutants. The Hellions scuffled with the New Mutants a few times, with the X-Men once. Selene entered the HFC and Roberto's father was recruited. The New Mutants were enrolled in the Massachusetts Academy for a time, and visited a Hellfire ball later. Amara and Rachel tried to assassinate Selene but were stopped by Xavier. Nimrod forced the HFC and X-Men to work together. The Mutant Massacre doubly so, forced the X-Men to more concretely ally themselves with the HFC.

They were a pretty constant presence and influenced a vast number of subplots, but as for outright battles between the X-Men and HFC, discounting the Dark Phoenix Saga there weren't really all that many -- which is just as it should be since they were always a political machine rather than a fighting team.

How realistic (even in comic book terms) is it for one person to change such an old, entrenched, corrupt group like the Hellfire Club??

I think if you manage to become Lord Imperial, it's very realistic. Getting to that position itself might not be so realistic, but since he was put in that position, it's all very plausible from then on.

Do the X-Men really need the Hellfire Club as an ally?

I think so. The X-Men have always had a very important political topic underlying them, in minority rights. One of their chief themes is very political. But the X-Men have always been a fighting team first and foremost. The HFC could easily be the X-Men's political wing, and the X-Men would benefit a lot from having one.

And if so, doesn't the Inner Circle at least owe the X-Men an apology for Jean's death, one of the greatest events to happen in the X-Books??

It's water under the bridge. So much has happened since Dark Phoenix that it would be nothing short of petty to demand an apology now. Besides, the chief culprit -- Jason Wyngarde -- is dead anyhow, and 90% of the blame was his. Plus, their intent was never to kill Jean but to turn her, so I don't think they have any culpability for her death. If anything, Lilandra and the Imperial Guard have much more culpability for Jean's death if anyone does. (And it wasn't Jean anyhow but the Phoenix Force which can't die so we get into pretty existential questions right there -- what's the point to ask for an apology for the temporary incapacitation of a cosmic entity?)

**Samy** · 08-10-2009, 01:42 PM

I think Marvel really dropped the ball in regards to Sunspot and the Hellfire club.

I concur. It was an interesting idea but I suppose no writer or editor just cared enough about Roberto to follow through on the plot. Things would've been different if I'd been in their stable.

**RolandJP** · 08-10-2009, 01:46 PM

Seconded. And I give props to Marc Guggenheim for at least acknowledging the plot thread.

**DrNoh** · 08-11-2009, 01:29 PM

Re. Sunspot's potential:

Originally posted by Werehunter:

I think Marvel really dropped the ball in regards to Sunspot and the Hellfire club. They easily could have had a mini with Sunspot and some of the more wealthy X characters fighting to solidify their control over the Hellfire Club.

Sadly, Marvel has dropped the ball with Sunspot for decades.

Did Storm ever wear a Hellfire Club outfit?:

Originally posted by Samy:

I don't recall her ever wearing a HFC outfit. Magneto did have a scene where he was annoyed by the attire and ripped it off, to attend a meeting in his usual guise. Storm always wore just her regular leathers.

From what I recall, Storm wore an Hellfire Club outfit at least once. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize.

Re. Can the Hellfire Club change?:

Originally posted by Samy:

I think if you manage to become Lord Imperial, it's very realistic. Getting to that position itself might not be so realistic, but since he was put in that position, it's all very plausible from then on.

If so, then I would have like to seen how that would turn out. AFAIK, when has one person in the Hellfire Club drastically changed it's own character that much?

IMO, such a group like the Hellfire Club dresses the way they do -- from a particular time in the past -- for a specific reason, which is to remind anyone around of a period in history noted for vast, entrenched corruption and a continuation of feudalism.

With rare cases, HFC Inner Circle members were chosen from wealthy old WASP families who greatly benefited from these systems. Vast change does not seem to be what they were/are really all about.

But again, to see such a change would have made for an interesting ongoing storyline.

Re. The Hellfire Club as X-Men allies:

Originally posted by Samy:

I think so. The X-Men have always had a very important political topic underlying them, in minority rights. One of their chief themes is very political. But the X-Men have always been a fighting team first and foremost. The HFC could easily be the X-Men's political wing, and the X-Men would benefit a lot from having one.

The more allies, the better, yet IMO the X-Men have never lacked for political allies. The dropped subplot with the international "Great Powers" could have possibly been such a force of the kind you mention.

Re. The Hellfire Club & the Dark Phoenix:

Originally posted by Samy:

It's water under the bridge. So much has happened since Dark Phoenix that it would be nothing short of petty to demand an apology now. Besides, the chief culprit -- Jason Wyngarde -- is dead anyhow, and 90% of the blame was his. Plus, their intent was never to kill Jean but to turn her, so I don't think they have any culpability for her death. If anything, Lilandra and the Imperial Guard have much more culpability for Jean's death if anyone does. (And it wasn't Jean anyhow but the Phoenix Force which can't die so we get into pretty existential questions right there -- what's the point to ask for an apology for the temporary incapacitation of a cosmic entity?)

Even before Phoenix's retcon (when for all intents and purposes, Jean Grey = the Phoenix), there was never any apology given to the X-Men by the Hellfire Club that I know of.

IMO, the Hellfire Club Inner Circle have the most blame for her death. From what I recall, Jean stated before her suicide that by the time the Imperial Guard fought the X-Men on the Moon, her power was just too vast for her to easily control. Her power was brought to this point by the direct intervention of the Hellfire Club.

Lilandra's intervention helped bring the Dark Phoenix back to the fore, however, but by the time, the HFC's earlier intervention helped Phoenix commit genocide of innocent beings.

IMO, it's not really "water under the bridge" to entirely disregard such an event brought on by the HFC's direct meddling in Jean Grey's life, especially considering it's fallout. Even Sage played a part with her own failure to detect and report anything going on with the Inner Circle's plans for the Phoenix.

It's more than just apologizing for the apparent "death" of a cosmic entity, given what definitely happened to the D'Bari and it's vast effect on the X-Men, who were never the same after Phoenix's "death" on the Moon.