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  1. #16
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    But on the flip side, Scott doesn't have a lot of potential outside of his daughter. His status is as super hero dad. It's his origin.
    Now he's a superhero dad in mourning. Perhaps he's found his place in the Marvel U as an instructor at the FF?
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    Now he's a superhero dad in mourning. Perhaps he's found his place in the Marvel U as an instructor at the FF?
    Oh yes, he's totally going to be doing that forever and ever and ever.
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  3. #18
    Chaotically Neutral Monty_Cristo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I know what kind of story I would love to see but they'd never do it. (You'd probably hate it. And no, it wouldn't be to kill Scott again.)
    and what story would you like to see?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    But on the flip side, Scott doesn't have a lot of potential outside of his daughter. His status is as super hero dad. It's his origin.
    you keep confusing those two words. it's part of his origin. it only has a small part to do with his potential. to judge a character's potential, you have to first acknowledge all of their attributes. you've chosen to focus solely on his status as a single father (and ignoring everything i told you the first time you made the claim). when he was appearing in Iron Man's title, his potential was all in his electrical engineering. he would show up as an employee of Stark Industries. he'd show up to spring Tony from his armor or to build something for him (Banner's nuclear pace maker, security systems, wrist communicators, etc). give his engineering skillset and experience with breaking into places, he's an easy candidate for any story involving stealth (like the Avengers story where Taskmaster/disguised as Captain America recruited him to break into the Triune Understanding's base).

    any one could make a story about Scott dealing with his criminal background. and guess what, they did. Scott's friend from prison tried to recruit him into Taskmaster's crime academy. Cassie had jack to do with that story.

    you could do a story about the Time Variance Authority (who he has experience with btw) hunting him down because of his temporal cheat. you can do any one of these stories with his ex having custody of Cassie or his daughter pursuing her own adventures.

    again, it all depends on how big your imagination (or how open your mind) is.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    and what story would you like to see?
    A villain offers Scott his daughter back if he does something criminal for him. (Hey, it's Scott's origin story with a twist.)

    But like I said, I doubt we'll see that story.

    you keep confusing those two words. it's part of his origin. it only has a small part to do with his potential. to judge a character's potential, you have to first acknowledge all of their attributes. you've chosen to focus solely on his status as a single father (and ignoring everything i told you the first time you made the claim). when he was appearing in Iron Man's title, his potential was all in his electrical engineering. he would show up as an employee of Stark Industries. he'd show up to spring Tony from his armor or to build something for him (Banner's nuclear pace maker, security systems, wrist communicators, etc). give his engineering skillset and experience with breaking into places, he's an easy candidate for any story involving stealth (like the Avengers story where Taskmaster/disguised as Captain America recruited him to break into the Triune Understanding's base).

    any one could make a story about Scott dealing with his criminal background. and guess what, they did. Scott's friend from prison tried to recruit him into Taskmaster's crime academy. Cassie had jack to do with that story.

    you could do a story about the Time Variance Authority (who he has experience with btw) hunting him down because of his temporal cheat. you can do any one of these stories with his ex having custody of Cassie or his daughter pursuing her own adventures.

    again, it all depends on how big your imagination (or how open your mind) is.
    You're making some misunderstandings about my point.

    Characters do not grow beyond their origin stories, no matter how much people like to pretend otherwise. Peter Parker will never get over Uncle Ben. Batman will never get over his parents.

    What you are doing are taking stories that used Scott Lang but aren't actually tied to him specifically. He was just the guy who happened to be around.

    His criminal background is not his most original or important defining element. (Other characters can fulfill the ex-con role. Hawkeye and Luke Cage, for example.)

    Even a redemption story can be done with Hank Pym.

    You're attempting to downplay his most important relationship and status within the Marvel Universe as the super hero dad. That's why he even has his current role in FF. To fulfill that void that losing Cassie has made (Reed basically said as such and Fraction definitely said as such).

    Saying he doesn't need his daughter is untrue. His origin is saving her.
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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  5. #20
    Senior Member 1derer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Characters do not grow beyond their origin stories, no matter how much people like to pretend otherwise.
    There are a thousand examples where this isn't true. Characters do will not grow beyond A) Being former criminals. B) Being former circus performers. or C) Witnessing a family member die in front of them, causing them to become a vigilante for the first time. These origins will always be relevant.

    Every other origin is fair game. The YA's origins are inessential to their current motivations. Scott Lang's current narrative is literally about moving past his original reason for being a superhero (to save Cassie, who he no longer has) and finding a new motivation for being one. Being a superhero-dad is part of who he is, but Cassie alive is unnecessary for him to be a superhero-dad.
    Last edited by 1derer; 12-23-2012 at 11:02 PM.
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  6. #21
    I wanna hear you scream Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1derer View Post
    There are a thousand examples where this isn't true. Characters do will not grow beyond A) Being former criminals. B) Being former circus performers. or C) Witnessing a family member die in front of them, causing them to become a vigilante for the first time. These origins will always be relevant.

    Every other origin is fair game. The YA's origins are inessential to their current motivations. Scott Lang's current narrative is literally about moving past his original reason for being a superhero (to save Cassie, who he no longer has) and finding a new motivation for being one. Being a superhero-dad is part of who he is, but Cassie alive is unnecessary for him to be a superhero-dad.
    Scott Lang working in the FF as he is a "super hero dad" is him playing to his origins. His current status and his desire for revenge against Doom is still him being defined by his relationship to his (currently, because this is comics) deceased daughter.

    His status as an ex-con are not as relevant, even if they are discussed within the book (which it was in FF #2).
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  7. #22
    Chaotically Neutral Monty_Cristo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    A villain offers Scott his daughter back if he does something criminal for him. (Hey, it's Scott's origin story with a twist.)

    But like I said, I doubt we'll see that story.
    two points. firstly, i would have absolutely no problem with that story. there are few Scott Lang stories that i wouldn't read. secondly, Scott has broken the law for Stark. he will pretty much do anything for a friend. so his daughter is more than enough leverage to get him to do something criminal. if Bendis hadn't killed him, i'm sure that something like this would have happened during Dark Reign. hell, it's exactly what happened in the Earth's Mightiest animated series. he robbed banks for Crossfire to get Cassie back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Characters do not grow beyond their origin stories, no matter how much people like to pretend otherwise. Peter Parker will never get over Uncle Ben. Batman will never get over his parents.
    but you mistakenly believe that this implies a lack of growth or that it limits his storytelling potential. so you basically lose this argument, right out the gate. Batman is a franchise. even then, i don't even agree with your first premise. Iron Fist started out seeking vengeance for the death of his parents. at this point, few people even remember that part of his story. as for story potential, Danny used to just be a street fighter. he's now part of the Phoenix legacy. Luke Cage was defined by being a convict at one point. now he's defined as the interim leader of the Avengers and as a family man. are you telling me that Julia Carpenter being Madame Web isn't growth beyond her origins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    What you are doing are taking stories that used Scott Lang but aren't actually tied to him specifically. He was just the guy who happened to be around.
    i'm not sure what you're saying. the story was about Scott Lang's former prison acquaintance recruiting him into Taskmaster's Academy. Spider-man was the guy who happened to be around in that story. if you read the story GARDs Gauntlet, it was entirely about Scott Lang, stark industries tech, having to overcome an A.I.-gone rogue. it basically hijacked Iron Man's title for a Scott Lang solo story. Cassie had nothing to do with the story. you must think that you're discussing with a rube. i know Scott's history. i know Cassie's history. what you are saying is factually incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    His criminal background is not his most original or important defining element. (Other characters can fulfill the ex-con role. Hawkeye and Luke Cage, for example.)
    Luke was framed (not to mention that he wasn't in very long). Hawkeye was just misguided and didn't serve time for his "crime of passion." and you know good and well that i never said that Scott's criminal background was his most original or important defining element. but it's referenced just as much as him being a single parent. it took up just as much of his origin story as Cassie. it's in every handbook bio. if he were to appear in live-action, i promise that it will be part of his story. but anyways, we were talking about story potential. there's loads of potential in his background as a criminal. it allows him to infiltrate the criminal underworld in a way that Clint and Luke can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Even a redemption story can be done with Hank Pym.
    any redemption story can be done with any character. what does this have to do with Scott's potential?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    You're attempting to downplay his most important relationship and status within the Marvel Universe as the super hero dad. That's why he even has his current role in FF. To fulfill that void that losing Cassie has made (Reed basically said as such and Fraction definitely said as such).
    no. i'm trying to defend the character that you have narrowly defined as having no potential outside of being Cassie's father. and you're forgetting that Fraction's original idea was to do a solo. Scott could have gone about investigating missing children cases. he could have ran off to the microverse. this all flies in the face of your belief that there's no story potential without Cassie being around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Saying he doesn't need his daughter is untrue. His origin is saving her.
    good thing i never said that. i will say that she doesn't need to be around to use her; Fraction has proven that. whatever her status, he's still her father. he could go on adventuring forever and still carry that tag. doesn't limit his story potential in any way. it's a part of his profile in the same way that the carnival is part of Clint Barton's. but you can tell stories about Clint that don't involve the carnival.
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  8. #23
    I wanna hear you scream Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    two points. firstly, i would have absolutely no problem with that story. there are few Scott Lang stories that i wouldn't read. secondly, Scott has broken the law for Stark. he will pretty much do anything for a friend. so his daughter is more than enough leverage to get him to do something criminal. if Bendis hadn't killed him, i'm sure that something like this would have happened during Dark Reign. hell, it's exactly what happened in the Earth's Mightiest animated series. he robbed banks for Crossfire to get Cassie back.
    It wouldn't be robbing banks. It'd be more like betraying the super hero community.

    Which is why it would never happen. A good betrayal story is always interesting, in my mind.

    but you mistakenly believe that this implies a lack of growth or that it limits his storytelling potential. so you basically lose this argument, right out the gate. Batman is a franchise. even then, i don't even agree with your first premise. Iron Fist started out seeking vengeance for the death of his parents. at this point, few people even remember that part of his story. as for story potential, Danny used to just be a street fighter. he's now part of the Phoenix legacy. Luke Cage was defined by being a convict at one point. now he's defined as the interim leader of the Avengers and as a family man. are you telling me that Julia Carpenter being Madame Web isn't growth beyond her origins?
    Luke Cage isn't defined by being an Avenger any more than the Silver Surfer is defined by his romantic relationship with Alicia Masters. Cage is done with the Avengers. (Just as Norrin isn't with Alicia anymore.)

    What you're doing is confusing the story they put a character in currently as a sign that they have moved on from their origins. Things like this do often change at the drop of a hat.

    Let me put it to you like this.

    Shang-Chi. His big thing is his relationship with his father. Even with all the trouble Marvel had with the Fu Manchu license, how often do they bring up his father?

    (Thankfully Scott had a healthier relationship with his daughter than Shang-Chi had with his father.)

    i'm not sure what you're saying. the story was about Scott Lang's former prison acquaintance recruiting him into Taskmaster's Academy. Spider-man was the guy who happened to be around in that story. if you read the story GARDs Gauntlet, it was entirely about Scott Lang, stark industries tech, having to overcome an A.I.-gone rogue. it basically hijacked Iron Man's title for a Scott Lang solo story. Cassie had nothing to do with the story. you must think that you're discussing with a rube. i know Scott's history. i know Cassie's history. what you are saying is factually incorrect.
    I never said they never stuck other characters incidentally into stories. (Particularly Spidey. He tends to get overexposed.)

    But AI gone rogue? That's Hank Pym's score, mister.

    Luke was framed (not to mention that he wasn't in very long). Hawkeye was just misguided and didn't serve time for his "crime of passion." and you know good and well that i never said that Scott's criminal background was his most original or important defining element. but it's referenced just as much as him being a single parent. it took up just as much of his origin story as Cassie. it's in every handbook bio. if he were to appear in live-action, i promise that it will be part of his story. but anyways, we were talking about story potential. there's loads of potential in his background as a criminal. it allows him to infiltrate the criminal underworld in a way that Clint and Luke can't.
    First thing, they ditched Clint's criminal background for the movies. (They kept Natasha's switching sides.)

    But yes, I know they would keep Scott's criminal background. It's a means of explaining certain activities he would do. But you seem to be under the impression that it is as equally important as his relationship with Cassie. I'm telling you that it isn't.

    any redemption story can be done with any character. what does this have to do with Scott's potential?
    Sure. They've practically done redemption stories with just about everyone at this point in time.

    no. i'm trying to defend the character that you have narrowly defined as having no potential outside of being Cassie's father. and you're forgetting that Fraction's original idea was to do a solo. Scott could have gone about investigating missing children cases. he could have ran off to the microverse. this all flies in the face of your belief that there's no story potential without Cassie being around.
    I'm saying he is defined by being a "super hero dad," and his relationship with Cassie is his most important. That's the reason he's in the FF. To replace that aspect in his world. But as many comics have long since established, things like this tend to be short-lived.

    That's why I suggested they could give him another kid. I also noted that things like that tend not to work out so well either.


    good thing i never said that. i will say that she doesn't need to be around to use her; Fraction has proven that. whever her status, he's still her father. he could go on adventuring forever and still carry that tag. doesn't limit his story potential in any way. it's a part of his profile in the same way that the carnival is part of Clint Barton's. but you can tell stories about Clint that don't involve the carnival.
    Yet they bring up Clint's carnival days quite a bit during his solo runs. Interesting, that.
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  9. #24
    Chaotically Neutral Monty_Cristo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    It wouldn't be robbing banks. It'd be more like betraying the super hero community.

    Which is why it would never happen. A good betrayal story is always interesting, in my mind.
    again, i would be fully onboard for that story. and, again, it's not that novel. it has been considered for the character (twice) before. a WhatIf issue dealing with Armor Wars had Scott betray Stark to Justin Hammer (who had kidnapped his daughter). and David Michelinie and Layton's plans for Iron Man: the End involve, in part, Scott betraying Tony. the motive in that one was Stark dating his ex wife (who was still Rae Lacoste/Madame Masque, at this point).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Luke Cage isn't defined by being an Avenger any more than the Silver Surfer is defined by his romantic relationship with Alicia Masters. Cage is done with the Avengers. (Just as Norrin isn't with Alicia anymore.)
    nice. you couldn't argue my Luke Cage is defined as a family man point. so you ignored it and chose to focus on his Avengers status.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Shang-Chi. His big thing is his relationship with his father. Even with all the trouble Marvel had with the Fu Manchu license, how often do they bring up his father?
    i don't follow Shang Chi. but what does his father have to do with him being recruited into the Avengers? again, your claim was that Scott's role limits his story potential. and you've subsequently provided many examples of characters going on to do plenty outside of their origins. Shang Chi being Fu Manchu's child is what they use to make him more than just a martial artist. but people are following him for the martial arts. it's his skillset that defines him. that's why he's called Shang Chi Master of Kung Fu instead of Shang Chi: Child of Fu Manchu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    But AI gone rogue? That's Hank Pym's score, mister.
    Hank pym's not the only character to create artificial life. Stark has done it, as well. Pym's story involved him overreaching and being humbled by it. Scott actually resolved the problem by the end of the issue. so i guess that means he wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    First thing, they ditched Clint's criminal background for the movies. (They kept Natasha's switching sides.)
    they didn't give Clint a background.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I'm saying he is defined by being a "super hero dad," and his relationship with Cassie is his most important. That's the reason he's in the FF. To replace that aspect in his world. But as many comics have long since established, things like this tend to be short-lived.
    and i'm saying that Cassie is no longer required for the relationship to continue. like you just said, the Future Foundation replace her. Paternalism//safe-guarding others is central to superheroics. there are scores of younger heroes who would benefit from mentoring. if there weren't, Pym would have had little to do after Mighty Avengers. instead, he got to copy Scott's father role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    That's why I suggested they could give him another kid. I also noted that things like that tend not to work out so well either.
    well that certainly wouldn't work out well or make sense. who were you suggesting he knock up? and how would they be a more appropriate replacement than the Future Foundation kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Yet they bring up Clint's carnival days quite a bit during his solo runs. Interesting, that.
    this wasn't insightful enough for a they bring up Clint's past quite a bit during solo runs. that's why i mentioned Scott's criminal background. it's at least half of his origin story. there's just as much to mine from it as his dad role. everytime Scott has gotten the focus, Cassie has been out of the picture. she was a different coast when he started living with the Fantastic Four. he had to lose custody of her to become an Avenger. and she had to die for him to become part of the Future Foundation.
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  10. #25
    I wanna hear you scream Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    nice. you couldn't argue my Luke Cage is defined as a family man point. so you ignored it and chose to focus on his Avengers status.
    How far removed are we from the creator who gave Luke a wife and daughter?

    i don't follow Shang Chi. but what does his father have to do with him being recruited into the Avengers? again, your claim was that Scott's role limits his story potential. and you've subsequently provided many examples of characters going on to do plenty outside of their origins. Shang Chi being Fu Manchu's child is what they use to make him more than just a martial artist. but people are following him for the martial arts. it's his skillset that defines him. that's why he's called Shang Chi Master of Kung Fu instead of Shang Chi: Child of Fu Manchu.
    Shang-Chi's father played a big role in a story during his Secret Avengers days.

    Hank pym's not the only character to create artificial life. Stark has done it, as well. Pym's story involved him overreaching and being humbled by it. Scott actually resolved the problem by the end of the issue. so i guess that means he wins.
    It might just mean that element isn't very important to him as a character and that was simply a story.

    they didn't give Clint a background.
    SHIELD Agent who gave Natasha a chance to defect.

    and i'm saying that Cassie is no longer required for the relationship to continue. like you just said, the Future Foundation replace her. Paternalism//safe-guarding others is central to superheroics. there are scores of younger heroes who would benefit from mentoring. if there weren't, Pym would have had little to do after Mighty Avengers. instead, he got to copy Scott's father role.
    Like I said, that's essentially trying to replace that relationship. And relative short-term, that's not a problem. Long term? Not gonna happen.

    (And considering that several of Hank's kids got captured by Arcade, he may not be good at that whole thing.)

    well that certainly wouldn't work out well or make sense. who were you suggesting he knock up? and how would they be a more appropriate replacement than the Future Foundation kids?
    So what happens after Fraction leaves FF? Are you expecting Scott to stay behind as a teacher in the Future Foundation forever?

    this wasn't insightful enough for a they bring up Clint's past quite a bit during solo runs. that's why i mentioned Scott's criminal background. it's at least half of his origin story. there's just as much to mine from it as his dad role. everytime Scott has gotten the focus, Cassie has been out of the picture. she was a different coast when he started living with the Fantastic Four. he had to lose custody of her to become an Avenger. and she had to die for him to become part of the Future Foundation.
    This is where the real disagreement comes. You seem to think that Cassie isn't the most important aspect of Scott's character. But as you said, all those elements are in a response to something happening to Cassie.

    I know Scott's criminal background is a part of his story. But I don't think it's the most important element.

    Everything that is important about Scott Lang as a character was in his Avengers: EMH appearance. If Scott Lang is the Ant-Man in the upcoming movie, what elements do you think they would or would not focus on? Do you really think they'd focus more on Scott's criminal background than his status as a father?
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    Chaotically Neutral Monty_Cristo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    How far removed are we from the creator who gave Luke a wife and daughter?

    where do you think his wife and daughter are going?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Shang-Chi's father played a big role in a story during his Secret Avengers days.

    that wasn't big by anyone's definition. the villains of the story were the Shadow Council. he who shall not be named (and wasn't even fully resurrected) was a pawn of the Shadow Council. his presence meant very little, at the end of the day. so, again, what does Fu Manchu have to do with Shang Chi's recent recruitment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    It might just mean that element isn't very important to him as a character and that was simply a story.

    oh i get that you'll simply dismiss any example i give that doesn't fit your narrative. this is mostly for the other people who might be reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    SHIELD Agent who gave Natasha a chance to defect.

    SHIELD agent isn't a background. it's his job title.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Like I said, that's essentially trying to replace that relationship. And relative short-term, that's not a problem. Long term? Not gonna happen.
    define "long term."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    So what happens after Fraction leaves FF? Are you expecting Scott to stay behind as a teacher in the Future Foundation forever?

    how the **** should i know? he's only just arrived. there might not be a Future Foundation after Fraction leaves. did you expect Scott to be one of the only survivors of the Death Celestials, in those last few issues of Defenders? that role certainly didn't have anything to do with him as a father. you're asking questions that no one can reasonably answer and pretending that the inability to answer somehow proves you right. it's not like anyone guessed that Scott was going to head up the Future Foundation before it happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    This is where the real disagreement comes. You seem to think that Cassie isn't the most important aspect of Scott's character.

    his love for his daughter is an essential component of Scott's character. it's the only thing about him that is unlikely to change (unless the story takes place in another reality where he joins Doom's Thunderguard and murders his daughter to show loyalty). has nothing to do with his role(s) within the Marvel Universe. there is not a limit to what stories you can tell with the character. he's not an untouchable A-lister who is too risky to tamper with. he could easily become the villain of the story and continue to love Cassie. he can continue to love a deceased Cassie. he can mentor the Future Foundation kids and still love Cassie. he could go back to Stark Industries, start a relationship with Pepper Potts, and still love Cassie. at his core, he's a loving father. but if you remove his ingenuity, it's not really Scott Lang. if you remove his criminal background, it's not really scott lang. all of these ingredients are essential to the 616 character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    But as you said, all those elements are in a response to something happening to Cassie.

    all those elements are in response to something happening to Scott.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I know Scott's criminal background is a part of his story. But I don't think it's the most important element.
    that's because it's an equal element.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Everything that is important about Scott Lang as a character was in his Avengers: EMH appearance.
    yes. they made sure that he was portrayed as...

    . highly intelligent/capable
    . desperate
    . sympathetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    If Scott Lang is the Ant-Man in the upcoming movie, what elements do you think they would or would not focus on? Do you really think they'd focus more on Scott's criminal background than his status as a father?
    i'm using his criminal background interchangeably with his skillset. he's skilled at breaking and entering. that's what allowed him to acquire the ant-man costume. it's how he got to that surgeon, in marvel premiere. it was this skill with electronics that got him the job at Stark Industries and his foot in the door with the Avengers. it's why Black Widow attempted to recruit him after Onslaught killed all of the mainstream heroes. it's the reason that the Fantastic Four know and trust him. it was his ability to remain unseen that got him the job with Heroes for Hire. it's why Edgar Wright has described the movie as a hi-tech spy heist. i'm betting that if they introduce Cassie, it's as a prop. she's what the Princess is in the Super Mario Bros games. those games are still about the adventure. and this is still being billed as a science fiction tinged action movie; as opposed to a flick about a single dad. i'd compare it to Con Air. so back to you. do you think they will focus on Scott's role as a daddy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    where do you think his wife and daughter are going?
    Has Marvel announced a new comic when I wasn't looking? Right now they aren't anywhere.

    that wasn't big by anyone's definition. the villains of the story were the Shadow Council. he who shall not be named (and wasn't even fully resurrected) was a pawn of the Shadow Council. his presence meant very little, at the end of the day. so, again, what does Fu Manchu have to do with Shang Chi's recent recruitment?
    How much emphasis do you expect to be placed on Shang-Chi?

    oh i get that you'll simply dismiss any example i give that doesn't fit your narrative. this is mostly for the other people who might be reading.
    And we had crazy Batman stories like the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh. Just because a story is published doesn't mean it demonstrates how major this character is.

    SHIELD agent isn't a background. it's his job title.
    If you want to say that Hawkeye didn't have anything to do in the Avengers movie, that is true.

    define "long term."
    Multiple creative teams across multiple years.

    how the **** should i know? he's only just arrived. there might not be a Future Foundation after Fraction leaves. did you expect Scott to be one of the only survivors of the Death Celestials, in those last few issues of Defenders? that role certainly didn't have anything to do with him as a father. you're asking questions that no one can reasonably answer and pretending that the inability to answer somehow proves you right. it's not like anyone guessed that Scott was going to head up the Future Foundation before it happened.
    I expected him to show up in Defenders since he was advertized as such. But he didn't do anything beyond shrinking the Defenders so they could hide out. They could have easily substituted Hank Pym for that role.

    I'll get back to this point at the end.

    his love for his daughter is an essential component of Scott's character. it's the only thing about him that is unlikely to change (unless the story takes place in another reality where he joins Doom's Thunderguard and murders his daughter to show loyalty). has nothing to do with his role(s) within the Marvel Universe. there is not a limit to what stories you can tell with the character. he's not an untouchable A-lister who is too risky to tamper with. he could easily become the villain of the story and continue to love Cassie. he can continue to love a deceased Cassie. he can mentor the Future Foundation kids and still love Cassie. he could go back to Stark Industries, start a relationship with Pepper Potts, and still love Cassie. at his core, he's a loving father. but if you remove his ingenuity, it's not really Scott Lang. if you remove his criminal background, it's not really scott lang. all of these ingredients are essential to the 616 character.
    If you were to boil it all down into one thing, what would you say is the most important thing about Lang as a character? Something that really separates him from Hank Pym.

    all those elements are in response to something happening to Scott.
    All of those are elements that play off of his relationship with Cassie. Even the last issue of Geoff Johns's Avengers run played off of the relationship between Scott and Cassie and Jack of Hearts.

    that's because it's an equal element.
    You're certainly not acting like it is. (And they're not.)

    yes. they made sure that he was portrayed as...

    . highly intelligent/capable
    . desperate
    . sympathetic
    Yes. And they emphasized his past and his daughter.

    i'm using his criminal background interchangeably with his skillset. he's skilled at breaking and entering. that's what allowed him to acquire the ant-man costume. it's how he got to that surgeon, in marvel premiere. it was this skill with electronics that got him the job at Stark Industries and his foot in the door with the Avengers. it's why Black Widow attempted to recruit him after Onslaught killed all of the mainstream heroes. it's the reason that the Fantastic Four know and trust him. it was his ability to remain unseen that got him the job with Heroes for Hire. it's why Edgar Wright has described the movie as a hi-tech spy heist. i'm betting that if they introduce Cassie, it's as a prop. she's what the Princess is in the Super Mario Bros games. those games are still about the adventure. and this is still being billed as a science fiction tinged action movie; as opposed to a flick about a single dad. i'd compare it to Con Air. so back to you. do you think they will focus on Scott's role as a daddy?
    The problem is that Scott Lang is Ant-Man II.

    What separates him from Hank Pym?

    Even having a criminal background seems to (pardon the pun) come up short next to Mr. wife-beater and builder of killer robots.

    So he's not as interesting as Hank Pym. (More stable, yes. Not as interesting. Don't even try to argue otherwise.)

    If only he had something to call his own that separated him from his predecessor. A kid might do.

    (And if they make Scott the lead of an Ant-Man film, I would expect some emphasis placed on his relationship with his kid before she ends up needing to be rescued. To fill time and to make the audience care if Scott succeeds.)
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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    Chaotically Neutral Monty_Cristo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I expected him to show up in Defenders since he was advertized as such. But he didn't do anything beyond shrinking the Defenders so they could hide out. They could have easily substituted Hank Pym for that role.

    from our perspective. from the in-story perspective, it was always meant to be Scott Lang. it's an important element within the overall arc. Scott was in Doctor Strange's vision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    If you were to boil it all down into one thing, what would you say is the most important thing about Lang as a character? Something that really separates him from Hank Pym.

    Pym's a mad scientist. Scott's an average joe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    All of those are elements that play off of his relationship with Cassie. Even the last issue of Geoff Johns's Avengers run played off of the relationship between Scott and Cassie and Jack of Hearts.

    it played off of Scott and Jack's relationship. this was the closure between them. the last story could have easily involved them both going on a mission and Jack's time running out. the reason they were paired off was because of their shared imprisonment/loneliness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Yes. And they emphasized his past and his daughter.

    no more or less than they emphasized his criminal background.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    The problem is that Scott Lang is Ant-Man II.
    What separates him from Hank Pym?

    personality

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Even having a criminal background seems to (pardon the pun) come up short next to Mr. wife-beater and builder of killer robots.

    in your mind. to me, Scott's time with the Fantastic Four and current quest to end Doom make him just as interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    So he's not as interesting as Hank Pym. (More stable, yes. Not as interesting. Don't even try to argue otherwise.)

    i'll do what i want. but i agree that there's not much use in arguing against an opinion. if i thought that Hank Pym was more interesting, i'd be a Pym fan. i chose Scott a long long time before Fraction's run. i have all of the characters appearances because he interests me. Pym was so interesting that they had to create the Wasp. Pym was so interesting that they had to make him one of the founding avengers. Pym was so interesting that they had to engineer a mental breakdown and create an entirely new personality. pym's so interesting that they had to pull an experiment in artificial intelligence out of their rears to give him a nemesis. Pym was so interesting that they had to seemingly kill his ex-wife and feat-cheat him an infinite mansion and scientist supreme title. they just keep throwing sh*t on a board and hoping it sticks for ol' Hank. Scott was 3-dimensional from jump. Edgar Wright saw it. Fraction saw it. your opinion doesn't rank above theirs, by any stretch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    If only he had something to call his own that separated him from his predecessor. A kid might do.

    might. but he's never needed it. part of his story is being undervalued and exceeding expectations. thankfully, Scott doesn't have an inferiority complex. that's his predecessor's hangup. that's why Pym was jealous (canon) of Scott's place with the Fantastic Four.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    (And if they make Scott the lead of an Ant-Man film, I would expect some emphasis placed on his relationship with his kid before she ends up needing to be rescued. To fill time and to make the audience care if Scott succeeds.)
    i don't expect him to be the lead of the movie. and i don't expect live-action to get many lines; at least, no more than Sandman's daughter.
    60% percent of the time, Ant-Man beats Doom every time

  14. #29
    I wanna hear you scream Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monty_Cristo View Post
    from our perspective. from the in-story perspective, it was always meant to be Scott Lang. it's an important element within the overall arc. Scott was in Doctor Strange's vision.
    I'm asking what does Scott Lang do in Defenders that the plot requires it be Scott Lang?

    Pym's a mad scientist. Scott's an average joe.
    So is Scott a genius ex-con who knows about robotics or an average joe?

    it played off of Scott and Jack's relationship. this was the closure between them. the last story could have easily involved them both going on a mission and Jack's time running out. the reason they were paired off was because of their shared imprisonment/loneliness.
    I know. And that's why Cassie was there. Even when she's not there, she defines who he is.

    no more or less than they emphasized his criminal background.
    I said they emphasized his past. You're the one trying to undercut his relationship to his daughter.

    personality
    Ha ha ha.

    Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh even harder.

    (Bender reference. +1000 points.)

    in your mind. to me, Scott's time with the Fantastic Four and current quest to end Doom make him just as interesting.
    Even Scott running the Future Foundation can be seen as following once again in Pym's footsteps as the administrator of Avengers Academy. As far as his quest for revenge, that's not the most original tale in comics.

    i'll do what i want. but i agree that there's not much use in arguing against an opinion. if i thought that Hank Pym was more interesting, i'd be a Pym fan. i chose Scott a long long time before Fraction's run. i have all of the characters appearances because he interests me. Pym was so interesting that they had to create the Wasp. Pym was so interesting that they had to make him one of the founding avengers. Pym was so interesting that they had to engineer a mental breakdown and create an entirely new personality. pym's so interesting that they had to pull an experiment in artificial intelligence out of their rears to give him a nemesis. Pym was so interesting that they had to seemingly kill his ex-wife and feat-cheat him an infinite mansion and scientist supreme title. they just keep throwing sh*t on a board and hoping it sticks for ol' Hank. Scott was 3-dimensional from jump. Edgar Wright saw it. Fraction saw it. your opinion doesn't rank above theirs, by any stretch.
    Scott is easier to sell as a hero. Ex-con trying to do right by his daughter? That's easy to sell as a hero.

    But he's still Ant-Man II. He's still in the shadow of Hank Pym. It does often feel that every major character created in the Silver Age, their successors are in their shadows. Whether you like Scott more or not, it doesn't change this.

    (And before you put words in their mouths, where did Fraction and Wright say such things about Scott Lang over Hank Pym. Do you have a source or is that just conjuncture?)

    might. but he's never needed it. part of his story is being undervalued and exceeding expectations. thankfully, Scott doesn't have an inferiority complex. that's his predecessor's hangup. that's why Pym was jealous (canon) of Scott's place with the Fantastic Four.
    Here you go again with undervaluing Cassie in Scott's character.

    i don't expect him to be the lead of the movie. and i don't expect live-action to get many lines; at least, no more than Sandman's daughter.
    Sandman's daughter was created for Spider-Man III.

    Cassie Lang is part of her father's origin story as Ant-Man.
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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    Chaotically Neutral Monty_Cristo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    So is Scott a genius ex-con who knows about robotics or an average joe?
    they are not mutually exclusive in the marvel universe. his genius just elevated him above the common criminal. it's right there in the marvel premiere quote. he doesn't have movie star good looks, a perfect relationship, wealth, or anything that would put him in the class of Reed Richards, Tony Stark, or Bruce Banner. he's an ordinary guy with ordinary problems. but like most regular people, he has something that he's good at. and he's parlayed that into a career as a costumed hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I know. And that's why Cassie was there. Even when she's not there, she defines who he is.

    i've already agreed about that. it's the even when she's not there that i'm getting you to see. Scott can be used any way the writer chooses because he's still fathered a child.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh even harder.

    (Bender reference. +1000 points.)
    it's bad form to award yourself points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Even Scott running the Future Foundation can be seen as following once again in Pym's footsteps as the administrator of Avengers Academy. As far as his quest for revenge, that's not the most original tale in comics.
    in other words, you can't really say anything about me undercutting Cassie's role since you crap on Scott at every turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Scott is easier to sell as a hero. Ex-con trying to do right by his daughter? That's easy to sell as a hero.
    no sh*t

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    But he's still Ant-Man II. He's still in the shadow of Hank Pym.
    i think Pym would kill to be the head of the Future Foundation. Scott has risen farther, as Ant-Man, than Hank did. Scott's been to several dimensions. he repaired a time sled. fixed the Hulk's dna. revived a cosmic being. faced off against a rogue Watcher. joined multiple teams. spawned a legacy character. and was entrusted with the Future Foundation. Pym fought Egghead, the Porcupine, a russian tranny, and a guy in platform boots. everything he's done as Ant-Man, Scott has duplicated and, now, surpassed. and i could make an argument that Pym's in Criti Noll's shadow. the skrull was person of the year, the head of Camp Hammond, instrumental in stopping Ultron, and managed to knock up Tigra (who considered Hank to be creepy).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    It does often feel that every major character created in the Silver Age, their successors are in their shadows. Whether you like Scott more or not, it doesn't change this.
    doesn't matter either. it's not something i'm insecure about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    (And before you put words in their mouths, where did Fraction and Wright say such things about Scott Lang over Hank Pym. Do you have a source or is that just conjuncture?)
    why don't you try doing some of your own research. you've openly dismissed all of the actual facts about Lang that i've provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Sandman's daughter was created for Spider-Man III.

    Cassie Lang is part of her father's origin story as Ant-Man.
    same function
    60% percent of the time, Ant-Man beats Doom every time

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