Cassandra "Batgirl" Cain Appreciation Thread

[ArnoldoAAD]

The character of Cassandra Cain isn't about being important, it's about the personal journey and her unique relationship with the world. Her story has never been about fighting big villains or saving Gotham or the world from some huge threat, it has always been about the discovery of who she is, what she fights for, why she fights, and what she hopes to become. It's about how she interacts and copes with the world, that even though her abilities gives her great insight into people, it also isolates her from others.

That's the real risk of a reboot. She is still trying to discover who she is and her place in the world. Retconning her would mean making changes to that very personal journey that may not preserve the core of the character and could lead to her becoming a very different character.

first lets clarify something, there is no way to just keep her continuity intact, its just impossible, so that personal journey will already get changes
with that in mind, why should the continuity matter at all for that personal journey?

yes, there is a risk that the reboot will lead her to become something different from what she was but that also applies if she doesnt get a reboot, this is a character that has been lost for 6 years, she cant return from such a long hiatus and her continuity butchered and remain the same person

the end result will be a character that is half new half old and is neither of those at the same time

if she restarts at least she has the chance to retain those basic traits of the character to make her new journey closer to the first one and maybe she will be more important to batman, i dont see why she has to be one and not the other, she can still be important and tell her own story

and something else, DC wont ever, EVER, bring her back only to tell the same stories she already told, so rebooted or not there will be some new elements mixed in

[godisawesome]

first lets clarify something, there is no way to just keep her continuity intact, its just impossible, so that personal journey will already get changes
with that in mind, why should the continuity matter at all for that personal journey?

yes, there is a risk that the reboot will lead her to become something different from what she was but that also applies if she doesnt get a reboot, this is a character that has been lost for 6 years, she cant return from such a long hiatus and her continuity butchered and remain the same person

the end result will be a character that is half new half old and is neither of those at the same time

if she restarts at least she has the chance to retain those basic traits of the character to make her new journey closer to the first one and maybe she will be more important to batman, i dont see why she has to be one and not the other, she can still be important and tell her own story

and something else, DC wont ever, EVER, bring her back only to tell the same stories she already told, so rebooted or not there will be some new elements mixed in

I think her chances of being rebooted depend greatly on how they approach her. I think an editorial edict to "reintroduce her" would almost certainly be a complete reboot with a new meeting with the Bat-family, but I also think that if the Bat-writers who like her get permission to use her, it's likely they'll just throw her in with the same background fluff they used on the Robins; ie., she was a female crimefighter associated with the Bat-family, her mother is Lady Shiva, who she has defeated in hand-to-hand combat, her father was David Cain, one of Bruce's early trainers, and she has a stronger connection to Barbara, Bruce, Tim, and possibly Stephanie, if she appears, than the other characters.

Even if editorial takes a similar stance to the Oracle/Batgirl standard as some on this message board have, wherein Babs was basically completely inactive for years and had nothing to do with the Bat-family until she could walk again, Cass is facing the same origin situation as Nightwing: the context of when their adventures started and who were their companions on this journey is now radically different but can be ignored for the sake of the current story. And if they insist that Babs was the only Batgirl ever and say that Cass can only be Black Bat, she gets the tim Drake treatment.

Really, her change depends entirely on who gets to reitroduce her and who's making the decisions about her.

[Whip Whirlwind]

I think the best way would be to reboot both her and Steph together. There's no way their past continuity is going to be kept in a manner that satisfies fans so why even try.

If they could do a series where Steph and Cass end up as rooomates (steph living on her own to get away from her parents, Cass just needing a place to stay), each independently deciding to become a vigilante then finding out the other did as well, and then working together while having a fringe relationship with the batfamily (with the exception of Tim), I would be okay with that.

I just don't see how DC could fit them in with their existing histories. Maybe they could start Steph off as having been spoiler for a few months and then forced to give it up (so they can keep her history from the Robin series), who then decides to get back to it after she meets Cass and sees what she can do.

[ArnoldoAAD]

I think her chances of being rebooted depend greatly on how they approach her. I think an editorial edict to "reintroduce her" would almost certainly be a complete reboot with a new meeting with the Bat-family, but I also think that if the Bat-writers who like her get permission to use her, it's likely they'll just throw her in with the same background fluff they used on the Robins; ie., she was a female crimefighter associated with the Bat-family, her mother is Lady Shiva, who she has defeated in hand-to-hand combat, her father was David Cain, one of Bruce's early trainers, and she has a stronger connection to Barbara, Bruce, Tim, and possibly Stephanie, if she appears, than the other characters.

Even if editorial takes a similar stance to the Oracle/Batgirl standard as some on this message board have, wherein Babs was basically completely inactive for years and had nothing to do with the Bat-family until she could walk again, Cass is facing the same origin situation as Nightwing: the context of when their adventures started and who were their companions on this journey is now radically different but can be ignored for the sake of the current story. And if they insist that Babs was the only Batgirl ever and say that Cass can only be Black Bat, she gets the tim Drake treatment.

Really, her change depends entirely on who gets to reintroduce her and who's making the decisions about her.

I honestly prefer the first option, relaunch her and threating her as a robin-like figure brings more possibilities than just limit her to whatever is left from her continuity

[KingofMadCows]

first lets clarify something, there is no way to just keep her continuity intact, its just impossible, so that personal journey will already get changes
with that in mind, why should the continuity matter at all for that personal journey?

yes, there is a risk that the reboot will lead her to become something different from what she was but that also applies if she doesnt get a reboot, this is a character that has been lost for 6 years, she cant return from such a long hiatus and her continuity butchered and remain the same person

the end result will be a character that is half new half old and is neither of those at the same time

if she restarts at least she has the chance to retain those basic traits of the character to make her new journey closer to the first one and maybe she will be more important to batman, i dont see why she has to be one and not the other, she can still be important and tell her own story

and something else, DC wont ever, EVER, bring her back only to tell the same stories she already told, so rebooted or not there will be some new elements mixed in

Continuity important for a personal journey because continuity is a major part of that personal journey.

Unlike Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, or even Terry McGinnis, Cassandra Cain isn't nearly as open to alternative interpretations. She's not an archetype like the others. With her, there is no clear path to where that journey leads. It's not about her becoming Batgirl, fighting crime, and that's it. The character is much more fluid and her future is in doubt, especially considering where her ongoing series left her. Rebooting her would be kind of like rebooting Batman during Knightfall while Bruce's back was still broken or rebooting Wolverine just as he is about to recover his memories and learn all the secrets of the Weapon X program.

That's why you just keeping her basic character traits isn't enough because how she developed those character traits and how she is still developing is just as important as the character traits themselves.

And why do you insist on making her more important? That's never been the point of the character. There's no need to shoehorn her into some story that forces her to be important. You can have an extremely personal story with a protagonist who is not a huge hero that makes world shaking decisions. Look at "Blade Runner," do you think the movie would have been better if Decker made some kind of huge impact that brought down the Tyrell corporation or forced the government to give replicants the same rights as regular humans?

[GiantRaven]

If they could do a series where Steph and Cass end up as rooomates (steph living on her own to get away from her parents, Cass just needing a place to stay), each independently deciding to become a vigilante then finding out the other did as well, and then working together while having a fringe relationship with the batfamily (with the exception of Tim), I would be okay with that.

Damn that sounds like a fun book. I'd be down with it no matter who the main characters were.

[GoldStarz]

I think the best way would be to reboot both her and Steph together. There's no way their past continuity is going to be kept in a manner that satisfies fans so why even try.

If they could do a series where Steph and Cass end up as rooomates (steph living on her own to get away from her parents, Cass just needing a place to stay), each independently deciding to become a vigilante then finding out the other did as well, and then working together while having a fringe relationship with the batfamily (with the exception of Tim), I would be okay with that.

I just don't see how DC could fit them in with their existing histories. Maybe they could start Steph off as having been spoiler for a few months and then forced to give it up (so they can keep her history from the Robin series), who then decides to get back to it after she meets Cass and sees what she can do.

I want their history relatively intact, though. I mean otherwise, DC would just make the in-name onlys. Plus, they just wouldn't be the same.

[The Man From Room X]

Batgirl and Spoiler by Cliff Chiang

[Knight of DC]

If they could do a series where Steph and Cass end up as rooomates (steph living on her own to get away from her parents, Cass just needing a place to stay), each independently deciding to become a vigilante then finding out the other did as well, and then working together while having a fringe relationship with the batfamily (with the exception of Tim), I would be okay with that.

This, written by BQM and drawn by Marcus To would be the definition of perfect.

[KingofMadCows]

I don't see how Cass could work without the events of No Man's Land. In terms of her character, that was the equivalent of Superman being raised by the Kents. It was when she was no longer a lost soul and Batman gave her something to believe in.

[ArnoldoAAD]

Continuity important for a personal journey because continuity is a major part of that personal journey.

thats exactly the problem, if continuity is such a major part of that personal Journey then that personal journey will have a lot of problems when DC decides to chop it off
what happen to that personal journey if she was never batgirl in the first place, if she never had oracle in her life and whatever other changes will happen to lady shiva in the new 52

and i could even argue that going evil and then becoming Blackbat is part of that personal journey, and yet everyone will dismiss it in a moment

Unlike Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, or even Terry McGinnis, Cassandra Cain isn't nearly as open to alternative interpretations.

I do not believe that, otherwise it would be admiting that no matter what happen, no matter what DC decides to do with the character, it will always be an alternative interpretation and as such it wouldnt be Cass, so essentially she doesnt exist anymore and will never comeback

She's not an archetype like the others. With her, there is no clear path to where that journey leads. It's not about her becoming Batgirl, fighting crime, and that's it. The character is much more fluid and her future is in doubt, especially considering where her ongoing series left her. Rebooting her would be kind of like rebooting Batman during Knightfall while Bruce's back was still broken or rebooting Wolverine just as he is about to recover his memories and learn all the secrets of the Weapon X program. That's why you just keeping her basic character traits isn't enough because how she developed those character traits and how she is still developing is just as important as the character traits themselves.

I get what you are saying but what you are not seeing is that the character has more things going on after her ongoing ended

that tragic and stupid thing of rebooting her after her series ended
That already happen, DC rebooted her as a villain, and everything that happen after that was a way to try to make sense to that, because DC couldnt rebooted her again, so basically they make a huge mistake and the rest of it was them trying to correct that mistake

want it or not, by definition, if we retake Cass starting from Batgirl #75, that would be a reboot

and thats what you want and thats what i want

dont think i just want to reboot for the sake of reboot, i was actually thinking just like you a couple of months ago, but i keep thinking and thinking and i realize that even if we lose all those stupid things of her continuity, all those great things that happen to her even if we keep them would be just an afterthought of who she was and not who she can be

And why do you insist on making her more important? That's never been the point of the character. There's no need to shoehorn her into some story that forces her to be important. You can have an extremely personal story with a protagonist who is not a huge hero that makes world shaking decisions. Look at "Blade Runner," do you think the movie would have been better if Decker made some kind of huge impact that brought down the Tyrell corporation or forced the government to give replicants the same rights as regular humans?

havent seen blade runner =/

my point on making her important was coming from the fact that she became so unimportant, not only to Batman but the whole DCU, that, well, thats exactly the reason why she was benched, thats exactly the reason why was turn evil and thats exactly the reason why DC said, "she is asian right, well then lets make her the asian batman inc"

she is a good character, and i like to think that she was at least important for her own ongoing, but she cannot support that ongoing now, and i dont want her as some random member from a random team, cause that would be the final nail in the coffin

my idea was simply to bring her back, and have her closer to batman, and to once again find a reason to be, a reason to live
If you analice her story very carefully, Cass was practically another robin, but instead of being a sidekick to Batman she was Oracle, she learn from her to do a better way, and with Oracle gone this would be the better choice

I understand that you want the character to be able to stand on her own, and thats exactly what i want, I just realize that she will never be able to do that unless she stand on a firm base and you cannot build that base on a continuity full of holes

[KingofMadCows]

thats exactly the problem, if continuity is such a major part of that personal Journey then that personal journey will have a lot of problems when DC decides to chop it off
what happen to that personal journey if she was never batgirl in the first place, if she never had oracle in her life and whatever other changes will happen to lady shiva in the new 52

and i could even argue that going evil and then becoming Blackbat is part of that personal journey, and yet everyone will dismiss it in a moment

Except none of that has been erased in the New 52. They haven't actually said that Barbara was never Oracle or that she was the only Batgirl or that No Man's Land didn't happen, etc.

I do not believe that, otherwise it would be admiting that no matter what happen, no matter what DC decides to do with the character, it will always be an alternative interpretation and as such it wouldnt be Cass, so essentially she doesnt exist anymore and will never comeback

I get what you are saying but what you are not seeing is that the character has more things going on after her ongoing ended

that tragic and stupid thing of rebooting her after her series ended
That already happen, DC rebooted her as a villain, and everything that happen after that was a way to try to make sense to that, because DC couldnt rebooted her again, so basically they make a huge mistake and the rest of it was them trying to correct that mistake

want it or not, by definition, if we retake Cass starting from Batgirl #75, that would be a reboot

and thats what you want and thats what i want

dont think i just want to reboot for the sake of reboot, i was actually thinking just like you a couple of months ago, but i keep thinking and thinking and i realize that even if we lose all those stupid things of her continuity, all those great things that happen to her even if we keep them would be just an afterthought of who she was and not who she can be

I have no problem with a "soft" reboot where they retcon some stupid or inconsistent stuff while keeping all the good things like how the Stargate television retconned the movie to fit the mythology of the show or how Superman Returns ignores Superman 3 and 4 but follows Superman 1 and 2 or how the Highlander series basically just ignores Highlander 2. But you're suggesting a complete reboot that basically reimagines the entire character.

The problem with a complete reboot is that there are unique circumstances that are very important to her character development. With Bruce, the details of how his parents were killed can be changed without losing its significance since what is important there is the effect it had on Bruce. With Cass, the details of how she became Batgirl in No Man's Land are much more important. Before that, she was a lost soul, wandering the world, running away from her past and her pain, and despite her abilities and great compassion, never felt that she could help the world. Having to confront her father to save Gordon was the first time she really dealt with the reason why she ran away. She could no longer run from the past and made a stand, proving to both her father and herself that she does not have to be what he tried to shape her into. She was learning that she could use her skills and abilities for a greater good, that there is hope and a path to redemption. And Batman gave her the opportunity to find that redemption and make peace with her past. It required a very specific and unique confluence of events for that to happen. Not only that but a significant part of the true meaning behind that origin isn't even revealed until later. The seeds of a lot of ideas were planted there, like the fact that she killed someone when she was young, but the details and significance weren't revealed until her solo run. Without all the subtext and depth of that origin, it would be very difficult to keep the emotional core of the character intact.

havent seen blade runner =/

my point on making her important was coming from the fact that she became so unimportant, not only to Batman but the whole DCU, that, well, thats exactly the reason why she was benched, thats exactly the reason why was turn evil and thats exactly the reason why DC said, "she is asian right, well then lets make her the asian batman inc"

she is a good character, and i like to think that she was at least important for her own ongoing, but she cannot support that ongoing now, and i dont want her as some random member from a random team, cause that would be the final nail in the coffin

my idea was simply to bring her back, and have her closer to batman, and to once again find a reason to be, a reason to live
If you analice her story very carefully, Cass was practically another robin, but instead of being a sidekick to Batman she was Oracle, she learn from her to do a better way, and with Oracle gone this would be the better choice

I understand that you want the character to be able to stand on her own, and thats exactly what i want, I just realize that she will never be able to do that unless she stand on a firm base and you cannot build that base on a continuity full of holes

But being important wouldn't keep her from being benched. She became way more important when she was turned into a villain. She became the leader of the League of Assassins, she was essentially taking Ra's al Ghul's place, that would have made her a significant figure in the DC universe.

And while she was like another Robin in terms of what she did as a superhero, her reasons and her character are not. Unlike Batman's other sidekicks, she's actually willing to devote her life to being Batgirl and hopes to one day take Batman's place. She's willing to not have a life outside of being a superhero unlike Dick or Tim or Barbara. Her reasons are also very different than any other person in the Bat family. Her purpose comes more from compassion, empathy, and a need for redemption rather than justice or revenge. She believes that everyone has the potential to be redeemed. And it all ties into her drive to redeem herself and make peace with her past.

[ArnoldoAAD]

Except none of that has been erased in the New 52. They haven't actually said that Barbara was never Oracle or that she was the only Batgirl or that No Man's Land didn't happen, etc.

we argue this little thing all day whatever it is in-continuity or not
but you have to admit that it exist the strong possibility that is not

and if its not in continuity, trying to keep it by rewriting it wouldnt not only be a bad idea but it would be completely pointless

I have no problem with a "soft" reboot where they retcon some stupid or inconsistent stuff while keeping all the good things like how the Stargate television retconned the movie to fit the mythology of the show or how Superman Returns ignores Superman 3 and 4 but follows Superman 1 and 2 or how the Highlander series basically just ignores Highlander 2. But you're suggesting a complete reboot that basically reimagines the entire character.

in reality all of those examples are also reimaginations of those characters just trying to keep the best of continuity
thats is what i want, is just i dont think the continuity is necessary at all

The problem with a complete reboot is that there are unique circumstances that are very important to her character development. With Bruce, the details of how his parents were killed can be changed without losing its significance since what is important there is the effect it had on Bruce. With Cass, the details of how she became Batgirl in No Man's Land are much more important.

I really dont thik it is
and Love NML, i really would that story to stick in continuity cause its one of the most important moments in Batman's history

but you can tell the story of Cass Cain without it

Before that, she was a lost soul, wandering the world, running away from her past and her pain, and despite her abilities and great compassion, never felt that she could help the world. Having to confront her father to save Gordon was the first time she really dealt with the reason why she ran away. She could no longer run from the past and made a stand, proving to both her father and herself that she does not have to be what he tried to shape her into. She was learning that she could use her skills and abilities for a greater good, that there is hope and a path to redemption. And Batman gave her the opportunity to find that redemption and make peace with her past.

and is NML necessary for that?
dont get me wrong, i agree with every word here but

why cant this be replicated?, or why cant it be improved?
i whole a lot of stories in a high ground but this isnt one of them

I do believe that you can still tell this story in a new and interesting way and keep her core intact

It required a very specific and unique confluence of events for that to happen. Without all the subtext and depth of that origin, it would be very difficult to keep the emotional core of the character intact.

I think this here is center of our whole discussion

It doesnt need to be that specific

with a relaunch it can be more creative

for example: how old should cass be?
is a very straight question

should she as old as Dick and Barb, or as old as Tim, even as old as Damian, or maybe in between Tim and Damian

I ask cause i think that would influence a lot on how the character would be used and in how would she interact with the other characters, and each option brings its own pros and cons

But being important wouldn't keep her from being benched. She became way more important when she was turned into a villain. She became the leader of the League of Assassins, she was essentially taking Ra's al Ghul's place, that would have made her a significant figure in the DC universe.

I think you(or I or we)are confusing Important with Relevant

I want her to be relevant, cause irrelevancy will not make her good

lets look at someone like Batwoman, she is a great character and at this moment can support her own title, and she stated first in 52 and then in Detective Comics
you cant say that she wasnt front and center to get her own comic and once it was self sustain, I want something like that for Cass

[Whip Whirlwind]

I want their history relatively intact, though. I mean otherwise, DC would just make the in-name onlys. Plus, they just wouldn't be the same.

I think Steph's history can be intact up until around her death in war games. Basically there will be her pre Robin history, some event that excuses her absence since then, and then we're in present day.

But I really think DC is sticking to this whole only one batgirl nonsense, and would most likely either totally butcher Cass's history, or excise it completely because of it. I'd take the latter.

Admittedly, I'd be interested in starting fresh with Cass because I think it would be interesting to make her journey more about just her and Steph. Really it's not Batman that inspired her, it's what he represents, going back to the whole "Not you...this." line. So I think it would be interesting to have Cass do it without help from the bat clan proper.

I don't see how Cass could work without the events of No Man's Land. In terms of her character, that was the equivalent of Superman being raised by the Kents. It was when she was no longer a lost soul and Batman gave her something to believe in.

I'd be okay if a rebooted Cass found something to believe in without needing it given to her by Batman. Admittedly though I just really like the idea of Steph and Cass as self made vigilantes.

This, written by BQM and drawn by Marcus To would be the definition of perfect.

Exactly.

I would write it as Steph retired from Spoiler, living in gotham alone (fake id says shes 18) to get away from her parents, who then meets Cass and ends up rooming with her. Eventually seeing Cass's skills, drive, and determination to be a vigilante, steph comes out of retirement to help her out and because who is she kidding being spoiler and helping people was awesome.

[KingofMadCows]

we argue this little thing all day whatever it is in-continuity or not
but you have to admit that it exist the strong possibility that is not

and if its not in continuity, trying to keep it by rewriting it wouldnt not only be a bad idea but it would be completely pointless

Yes, I do admit the possibility that it's no longer in continuity. However, there's no reason why they can't keep that continuity intact, especially considering how they've pretty much kept the Green Lantern continuity intact and that's just as difficult, if not more so, to cram into the new timeline.

in reality all of those examples are also reimaginations of those characters just trying to keep the best of continuity
thats is what i want, is just i dont think the continuity is necessary at all

But the point is that they kept most of the continuity that were good, especially the major events.

I really dont thik it is
and Love NML, i really would that story to stick in continuity cause its one of the most important moments in Batman's history

but you can tell the story of Cass Cain without it

and is NML necessary for that?
dont get me wrong, i agree with every word here but

why cant this be replicated?, or why cant it be improved?
i whole a lot of stories in a high ground but this isnt one of them

I do believe that you can still tell this story in a new and interesting way and keep her core intact

I think this here is center of our whole discussion

It doesnt need to be that specific

with a relaunch it can be more creative

for example: how old should cass be?
is a very straight question

should she as old as Dick and Barb, or as old as Tim, even as old as Damian, or maybe in between Tim and Damian

I ask cause i think that would influence a lot on how the character would be used and in how would she interact with the other characters, and each option brings its own pros and cons

While I would admit that it's possible to tell Cass's story without NML, it is very difficult due to the large number of themes, emotions, and ideas involved in that origin that they were able to explore due to the specific circumstances present during NML.

1. Gotham being a war zone explores Cassandra being a lost soul who has been through the worst places in the world and seen the worst of humanity.
2. Barbara being desperate enough to use her to perform dangerous jobs that only she has the skill to do. For the first time in years, perhaps since she ran away, she finds someone who cares about her and there is a glimmer of hope in her life.
3. Her father being hired to kill Commissioner Gordon, which forced her to finally confront her past and make a stand against her father and the memories that haunt her.
4. She has to reconcile her conflicting emotions of love for her father and the sadness, disappointment, and loathing in what her father tried to turn her into.
5. Batman being in a desperate situation where he's at risk of giving up his principles. Cass giving him hope by showing that there is another way even in such desperate times.
6. Batman bringing Cass onboard not just because how she was able to prove herself but because he was still in dire need of help. Thus showing her a way to use her skills to make the world better, giving her something to believe in, and opening a path to her redemption.

There are also several other factors involved like the mystery of her past, how her abilities worked, her relationship with Azrael, etc.

Granted, all the situations that evoked these themes and ideas can be replicated but it would be very difficult to keep the same depth and emotional resonance. For example, one of the key elements of NML was the desperation and despair of the situation that drove all these events. As such, a major part of Cass's origin is about finding herself and finding hope, for her and for others, in the most hopeless of times. In fact, the arc of her character is about finding and possibly losing herself in the most desperate and hopeless of times, as well as how her past shaped that inner conflict. So how would you create an event that has the same sense of hopelessness and despair for not just Cass but everyone around her to replicate the atmosphere, emotions, and situations present during NML, all while keeping that link with her past? And do you think the DC is competent enough to do it?

I think you(or I or we)are confusing Important with Relevant

I want her to be relevant, cause irrelevancy will not make her good

lets look at someone like Batwoman, she is a great character and at this moment can support her own title, and she stated first in 52 and then in Detective Comics
you cant say that she wasnt front and center to get her own comic and once it was self sustain, I want something like that for Cass

She was always relevant, the DC higher ups were just too dumb to see it.

I'd be okay if a rebooted Cass found something to believe in without needing it given to her by Batman. Admittedly though I just really like the idea of Steph and Cass as self made vigilantes.

Well, as I detailed in the earlier part of this post, there are several other factors involved in her origins in NML.