Mèdici’s Garden

[snarkbunny]

Big time Pens fan. I also hate the Flyers with a passion, except for John Stevens. He's a solid coach, minus the crap he let his team pull the other night.

That was a remarkably stupid thing to pull. If the Flyers would just stop the crap and the stupid penalties, they have a decent team (I'm a Sens fan). Totally get the good, clean hate though - Oooh have you seen the Bruins Hockey Rules on Dating?

I have to wonder if such a fantastic discovery is just an elaborate scam to get more money though- like it could be a made-up treasure or something just to get the cash flowing and jobs created.... but if it really does exist and is discovered in good shape then this could potentially change a ton of perceptions. Tutankhamun's tomb discovery came at a time when popular culture hadn't yet fallen in love with Egypt.. you could say that discovery and exploitation started it and not be wrong, I think. With this discovery, people already have lots of preconcieved notions about how things were and they are likely to not welcome the discovery with such enthusiasm, which is really a shame, because Tutankhamun was not very important in the grander scheme when he was alive, but Cleopatra was infinitely more significant.

I suppose it could be a scam, but there is a lot of things we haven't discovered or know about yet. We are barely scratching the surface of underwater archealogy, and there are a lot of continuously occupied places built on top of older structures that have never been examined.

You have a fascinating point on preconceived notions, though. Heck, look how long plate tectonics took to be accepted. It would be a shame, though because I'm convinced the real story behind Cleopatra and her times is probably far more fascinating.

[howyadoin]

... female Dune fans.

Do those really exist? I've literally only met one in my life.

[snarkbunny]

Do those really exist? I've literally only met one in my life.

Interesting, I can't stand Dune myself but I always figured I was just in the minority.

[End of Time]

Interesting, I can't stand Dune myself but I always figured I was just in the minority.

You are an ugly person on the inside!

[snarkbunny]

You are an ugly person on the inside!

Darn right - ever seen pictures of an uterus? It's definitely ugly, and don't get me started on lungs or intestines.

[crazyredlady]

personally I find beauty to be a thing based upon perspective...
if you're able to find beauty in all things, then I'd say there's either a degree of enlightenment or someone just doesn't want to hurt the other person's feelings, which is b.s.:rolleyes:
course it also depends on where the beauty lies too

[Affinity]

Beauty is not in all things.

[howyadoin]

Beauty is not in all things.

Preach it, brother.

[crazyredlady]

perhaps I should ammend my statement;
there are certain types of beauty all around you if you know where to look. There is beauty in the rising sun, but there is also something beautiful (imho) about a great white shark launching itself out of the water to dine on sea lion.
the only thing I can't find any beauty in is gossip rags....and tv shows based on gossip rags.
Sorry, in a certain state of bliss right now. thanks to the Midol and getting the first page for my first Crumbshoe Detective story penciled and lettered. I've even got the first panel inked.
what can I say but, it's beautiful

[Viktor Bogdanovic]

looking for artist to draw me a ubera$$kicking graphic novel (about 1257 pages) with
lots of spaceships, robots, aliens, futuristic cities, cool weapons, cool tech stuff and $hit
but very realistic and detailed, best would be photorealistic but a style like
marc silvestri or j. scott campbell (or better) is ok too.

artist has to send me a catalogue of at least 28 pages of tech stuff and $hit
with concepts of cool flying cars (with chicks in them), three or more designs
of entire alien planets and their habitat so i can choose one for my story
+ artist has to send me gifts to persuade me to let him draw my awesome graphic novel.

artist has to work very fast day and night and have lots of experience in drawing
cool tech stuff and $hit with chicks and aliens and action and all that.

IMPORTANT: artist who wish to contact me have to adress me with "sir"
or "doctor" or "sir doctor" in their e-mails. otherwise i won't respond to them.

this is a non-paying project, of course.

[Pro]

Hehe, Victor. Guess I'm not the only one who often wonders about those offers to work for no pay.

No selfrespecting artist is going to work for no pay, people.
Make an actual offer, one involving money, then I'll possibly take the bait.
We need food on the table like everyone else and every hour we work for free is an hour we could spend on tracking down a paid gig.

And most of us are far too aware of the likelihood to actually get published to gamble on the small chance of possibly getting paid at some later point in time.

[Pro]

Heh, I got this personal message from someone who got offended by a post of mine in the talent thread wondering why people expect artists to work for free. since he said he didn't care what I did with what he said I'm posting my response to him here so we can all chip in.

I was going to post but since your post is going to be deleted for being off topic like the last time you did that I thought I would just send it to you direct.

Since you were so afraid my post was off topic in a thread about seeking talent I figured I'd repost your response in a public thread where it is not off topic because frankly I think you're a coward for bashing me in a personal message for mentioning that you stand a better chance to get a good artist if you're willing to invest your own money in your own project.

I have a question for you. If you're so awesome why do you need to look on that thread?

Where did I say I was awesome? But hey I'll waste my time answering you anyway. Jobs aren't abundant. if you had any real life experience as an artist you'd realise that any venue to get a job is worth taking a look at, even the ones where 90% of people expect to get something for free.

Why don't you just write your own book, illustrate it and be done with it?

I've done work for videogames, universities, advertisement agencies, I've had my work hanging in a dutch comic book museum, i have over 10 years of experience as an artist. I've written and drawn comics for local comic magazines. I work on several of my own projects, writing, coloring and drawing them

Could it be that you can't?

Have you seen my work?

I myself cannot draw so I look for artists and offer them backend pay to work on projects. Do you know how I do that? I show them my work and they judge its merit for themselves on whether they think that it is worth their time to do the work for no upfront pay.

If you had ANY financial success with previous projects you'd have money to invest in this one. So what merits are you talking about? Clearly not the ability to make a profit with your writing.

Like everyone who looks at that thread writing is not my main source of income so I can't pay anyone upfront. If I stopped to pay everyone out of my own pocket I would never get any projects off the ground.

Yes, that's how it works in the real world. You invest in a project and if succesfull you get your investment back through selling it. That's how ANY business works if you rely on others to do the work for you that you can't do yourself. Not being able to secure investment money for your project either means you aren't good at the business end of creating a comic, you’re not very good at writing or you lack the confidence that your investment will actually make you money but you expect the artist to have that confidence!

In any business if you can't invest in your own project you're not going to get your projects running. What you're asking is for someone ELSE to invest THEIR time in YOUR project with the small possibity that you might some day pay them for their efforts in investing time (and thus money) in YOUR project.

What you fail to understand is that the comic book industry like any other branch of the entertainment industry is built on the old axiom of "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours."

Bullshit. The industry of entertainment is based on paying artists what they're worth. That is the basis of ANY industry.

Those who remember that are the ones who prove to be successful. In the world of entertainment no one gets paid when they are starting out. Comedians do stand up for years before they get paid for their shows. Actors do community theater for years and student films before they get paid. That's just the way it works.

Standup comedy is rarely EVER a collaborative project like yours. Community theater is volunteer work, it is not professional work. Student films are made by students, not working professionals. Try again.

If someone can pay you then good for them. If they can't you should try to judge the work that you're working on. Just because someone is willing to pay you doesn't mean that the work is good.

But usually the fact someone lacks the confidence to put money on the table means the project isn't worthwhile financially.

And if you only care about money and not if the work will actually get published then you’re an idiot because good published work leads to more work and a steady pay check from a company where you can actually make a living off of your artwork.

I'm an idiot for wanting to pay my bills and put food on the table? You're not asking me to put time and money into my own project. You're asking me to risk wasting time on your project to make you money so you can pay me.

I owe those artist that I work with (those artists who I guess have no respect for themselves by your own words) a lot and as I go further along I plan on inviting them to work on other projects and they'll do the same for me.

So you’ve done this type of deal before? Did it make a profit? Clearly not because if it had you’d have investment money to pay for this project.

More likely though you're never going to get anywhere with your attitude because no one is going to waste time on a project whose inventor is too scared to lose money on his own project and expects other people to invest their time in it and most likely getting nothing out of it in return. Anyone with an ounce of experience in comic book creation will tell you that most projects end up never panning out, let alone make a decent profit.

That's why if you look at the artists who have steady gigs in the industry you’ll find that they usually work with the same writers on various projects. The comic book industry is about who you know and people helping each other out when it comes to work.

You have 3 posts, who here knows you? Where are your credentials? How many succesfull projects have you done? Who published your work? What did they pay you? What was the profit margin? Even if you're the next shakespeare it doesn't mean you're capable of making money with it.

What you’re asking for is blind faith.

Anyway you'll continue to whine about not getting paid and that's cool. The artists who are willing to take a chance will do so and catch a break while you continue to hang out on this message board trying to use it as your personal piggy bank.

What piggy bank? You’re certainly not going to make any money for me. That much is obvious. And since when is making money to pay the bills a piggy bank? Is that how you see your monthly income?

You can do whatever you want to with what I’ve said as I don’t really care.

Thank you so much. I decided to make it a public post instead of swallowing your bullshit attitude privately so we can all discuss it.

Most of us who look at the thread live in the real world and understand how things work I thought I would just share a little slice of that with you.

Clearly you don't work in the real world. In the real world everything comes with a price tag.
THAT'S how it the real world works.

Anyway good luck, you're going to need it.

[Redcard1016]

Heh, I got this personal message from someone who got offended by a post of mine in the talent thread wondering why people expect artists to work for free. since he said he didn't care what I did with what he said I'm posting my response to him here so we can all chip in.

I didn't get offended. I was wondering why you keep looking at that thread if people looking to work with artists for back end pay bothered you so much. There are people in the thread looking to pay upfront too so you have no reason to complain. I wasn't looking for an argument but since you want to make this public I'm game.



Since you were so afraid my post was off topic in a thread about seeking talent I figured I'd repost your response in a public thread where it is not off topic because frankly I think you're a coward for bashing me in a personal message for mentioning that you stand a better chance to get a good artist if you're willing to invest your own money in your own project.

Actually I wasn't bashing you I was asking a simple question which was if you're so amazing why don't you just write your own projects instead of whining in the talent search thread. That was the second time you did so so I wanted to know why.



Where did I say I was awesome?

Direct quote from you: (Make an actual offer, one involving money, then I'll possibly take the bait.)

But hey I'll waste my time answering you anyway. Jobs aren't abundant. if you had any real life experience as an artist you'd realise that any venue to get a job is worth taking a look at, even the ones where 90% of people expect to get something for free.



I've done work for videogames, universities, advertisement agencies, I've had my work hanging in a dutch comic book museum, i have over 10 years of experience as an artist. I've written and drawn comics for local comic magazines. I work on several of my own projects, writing, coloring and drawing them

I'm proud of you. This message board is littered with artists who have an even better list of accomplisments than you do. They don't waste thier time whining about payment. They look for gigs whether they pay or not.


Have you seen my work?

Nope, sure haven't



If you had ANY financial success with previous projects you'd have money to invest in this one. So what merits are you talking about? Clearly not the ability to make a profit with your writing.

Actually I just started doing comics. I haven't published one yet. My first one should be out in early june as I'm just getting some pages back now and I'm starting on the lettering. So you should wait until then to judge me.



Yes, that's how it works in the real world. You invest in a project and if succesfull you get your investment back through selling it. That's how ANY business works if you rely on others to do the work for you that you can't do yourself. Not being able to secure investment money for your project either means you aren't good at the business end of creating a comic, you’re not very good at writing or you lack the confidence that your investment will actually make you money but you expect the artist to have that confidence!

In any business if you can't invest in your own project you're not going to get your projects running. What you're asking is for someone ELSE to invest THEIR time in YOUR project with the small possibity that you might some day pay them for their efforts in investing time (and thus money) in YOUR project.

Bullshit. The industry of entertainment is based on paying artists what they're worth. That is the basis of ANY industry.

See this is where people waste thier time and money working on projects that go nowhere. I'm working on an anthology right now where both artists are working for back end pay. I'm self pusblishing it though indyplanet and comixpress. The money that I'm going to invest in the project is through the advertisment of the book not paying artists upfront. That's how you make money on the project THROUGH SALES. If I spent all my money upfront on the project and was broke by the time it came out how would I be able to get anyone to know it exsists? How would the artists who put in thier effort be able to make any money on it? Common sense would say that getting residuals on a project would be better than getting a small upfront fee with no chance on more money because I can't advertise it, wouldn't you say? I'm not here to waste my time or the time of the people I work with. I want to make money and I want to make sure they make money so we can work on more projects. I don't just want to have a pretty comic book collecting dust on my desk.



Standup comedy is rarely EVER a collaborative project like yours. Community theater is volunteer work, it is not professional work. Student films are made by students, not working professionals. Try again.

Geez you're right about those silly film students like Spike Lee, Kevin Smith, Martin Scorsese, ect. I mean none of those film students ever did anything after film school, did they? And I mean look at the time wasted by the people who worked for them on those early projects. It's not like none of them still work with those same exact people on thier multi-million dollar projects. You're so correct.



But usually the fact someone lacks the confidence to put money on the table means the project isn't worthwhile financially.

Wrong buddy, see above. Business success is knowing WHEN to spend the money.



I'm an idiot for wanting to pay my bills and put food on the table? You're not asking me to put time and money into my own project. You're asking me to risk wasting time on your project to make you money so you can pay me.

I think you should make money too. But you should also try to make partnerships with people. That's how you make a career out of this and not something that you only do on the side. Rather than wasting your time on this board looking for someone to offer you an opprotunity you should create one. That's what I'm doing. I'm not waiting for someone to publish me. I'm going to publish myself.



So you’ve done this type of deal before? Did it make a profit? Clearly not because if it had you’d have investment money to pay for this project.

More likely though you're never going to get anywhere with your attitude because no one is going to waste time on a project whose inventor is too scared to lose money on his own project and expects other people to invest their time in it and most likely getting nothing out of it in return. Anyone with an ounce of experience in comic book creation will tell you that most projects end up never panning out, let alone make a decent profit.

You're the one with the poor attitude. People with your attitude rarely have much more than minor sucess because people don't want to work with them more than once.




Thank you so much. I decided to make it a public post instead of swallowing your bullshit attitude privately so we can all discuss it.

Again I have no attitude. I asked you a simple question. I'll ask it again. If you don't want to waste your time with people who aren't looking to pay upfront why not just write your own projects? There was no reason for you to post what you posted on that thread. It was rude and served no purpose other than you venting your own frustrations in an inappropriate place. Next time you have a problem you should be more constructive in your criticism.



Clearly you don't work in the real world. In the real world everything comes with a price tag.
THAT'S how it the real world works.

Anyway good luck, you're going to need it.

Thank you for offering me luck in my future endeavors. I appreciate it. Now you can continue this argument, I said my peace. I have work to do.

[Pro]

I wasn't looking for an argument but since you want to make this public I'm game.

You don't call people idiots if you're not looking for an argument, buddy. Your whole post was dripping with condescension.

Geez you're right about those silly film students like Spike Lee, Kevin Smith, Martin Scorsese, ect.

Are you really comparing yourself to Martin Scorsese, Kevin Smith and Spike Lee? LoL.

How would the artists who put in thier effort be able to make any money on it?

By actually getting paid for their work instead of waiting to hit the jackpot by working with a no-name never-before-published writer.

Like Atari/Bioware who paid me for portrait work on Neverwinternights: Wyvern Crown of Cormyr, like the university did for my illustrative work on the dutch equivalent of the national SAT, like the ad agency did for my illustrative work for their clients, like the money I made with illustrating websites, like the clients who paid me for commissions.

Jobs mind you that I did get through networking and advertising my own work.

I've also taken plenty of risks on projects where payment was unsure and it always came back to bite my arse so I do know what I'm talking about.

Here's how it really works: You pay the artist money for actually making the art, that gives you the right to use one copy of the artwork. Then when you actually manage to sell the product you pay them a copyright fee per copy to publish it in bulk. That's how it works. Occasionally a client opts to pay off the copyright to make it their own, but this is obviously more expensive and usually advised against.

All I really said in the post your responded to by calling me an idiot is that if you want a good artist you'd better be prepared to pay for it. I don't see how that's not constructive criticism. Maybe you felt slighted by the post before mine that made fun of your request for unpaid artwork but you directed your attitude at the wrong person.

I did mean it when I wished you good luck. I also meant it when I said you're going to need it. Because in all honesty if you think you're going to make money self-publishing comics without paying for a good artist I'm not betting on your chances to make it big.

[howyadoin]

I also meant it when I said you're going to need it.

Second that.