Editorial mandates and restrictions

[Matt Linton]

Except Pete's never going to marry a cop. Date one, maybe, but not marry since he can't get married since it ages him. And since the whole point of Peter dating is to add "soap opera elements," there needs to be conflict with other parties. Hence the need for the dissolution of the marriage, because IF the writers CHOSE to introduce another love interest as a spoiler Pete can't be seen as cheating on his love interest.

He also won't have a relationship in real time, because that would also age him. Sure these are great points, but none that Marvel will ever explore because it goes against their editorial mandates for the character that we have seen passed down. The relationships HAVE to end, because Marvel won't let them grow beyond a certain point because it would "weaken" the characters appeal.

And why is it that people automatically assume that Peter has to be single for there to be a new "golden age" for the character? Most of the most fondly remembered stories are ones that were built on the running status quo, not ones that constantly went back and forth trying to recreate something from the past. Remember, Pete was married when Kraven's Last Hunt was told and Venom was introduced, so his marriage certainly didn't impede new concepts and new stories from being introduced into the books. Expecting Spider-Man to be an exact way before good stories can be told is the best way for good stories NOT to be told because it is artificially imposing restrictions on something that proves it doesn't need them to succeed.

You're missing the point of what I posted, which is that, while it's true that RIGHT NOW Peter isn't going to get married, there's nothing saying that somewhere down the line a different EiC might not feel differently.

And I didn't mean Peter would date in real time, just that we might see him in a relationship for years (like we saw him married to MJ for twenty years, even though within the comic it probably would have been less than five).

I'm also not assuming that he has to be single for great stories to happen. I'm just not assuming because he is single again that all that can happen is repeating past stories.

[RDMacQ]

You're missing the point of what I posted, which is that, while it's true that RIGHT NOW Peter isn't going to get married, there's nothing saying that somewhere down the line a different EiC might not feel differently.

And I didn't mean Peter would date in real time, just that we might see him in a relationship for years (like we saw him married to MJ for twenty years, even though within the comic it probably would have been less than five).

I'm also not assuming that he has to be single for great stories to happen. I'm just not assuming because he is single again that all that can happen is repeating past stories

But that's assuming that a female character can be created that will equal or even surpass MJ in terms of popularity, longevity, and mass media appeal.

And I understand that you are saying that things COULD happen this way. What I'm saying is that given Marvel's current attitude towards the Spider-Man books, that seems unlikely since it seems counter-productive to their intent for the character. They want him to stay young, single and relatable- which means he won't have any serious relationship with anyone develop past a certain point. Given the lengths the creators went to dissolve Spider-Man's longest lasting relationship, I don't think its likely that any subsequent relationship has any chance of lasting beyond the dating stage.

[Mister Mets]

The guy he killed in the annual didn't seem to be an accident.

I was thinking more about Morlun, and Charlemagne.

The annual was purely self-defense. Using the missile the other guy (one of the most dangerous hitmen on the planet) wanted to kill him with.

It was certainly not anything we'd consider 'Murder One.'

[Mister Mets]

True enough. However, I wasn't arguing that a married Peter and MJ are somehow fodder for far more stories than a single Peter. I was arguing that the idea that Peter has more stories, or that his stories are more diverse because he's single is partially false. As others have pointed out on this thread, while there may seem to be a lot of diversity it is really restricted by editorially mandates that prevent the relationship from developing beyond a certain point. It SEEMS that there is more options for storytelling, however this is just an elaborate smokescreen. Most of Peter's relationships won't allow anything more than a twist here and there to add flavor and color to the relationship but not much else. So if that is the case, then why not just accept it and have Peter and MJ remain married? We know that there is not going to be any development beyond a certain point, so why not accept it and allow the writers to focus on other aspects of the mythos.

I understand that Peter's relationships issues are appealing to some readers and creators. I do. However, people tend to ignore the fact that Peter has been in a lot of relationships over the years- a lot of which are easily forgotten. Look at the Deb Whitman example- Pete's relationship with Deb filled all the requirements for a "great" Spider-Man soap opera. Pete had to run out on her to be Spider-Man, there were some good dramatic developments as Deb seemingly deduced Pete's double life, Deb certainly was more of a fit for Peter than the Black Cat or MJ and their relationship was during the time of the Cobra/ Mister Hyde battle and Nothing Stops the Juggernaut. Yet Deb Whitman's character and her relationship with Peter is largely ignored by fans and creators alike. Why? Because Peter Parker is more than just his marital status, and his relationship problems are not in and of themselves fodder for endless stories. Sure there are some notable example- The Gwen/ Peter/ MJ love triangle was interesting because it was a nice Betty and Veronica style romance, with the guy ending up with the Veronica over the Betty. It was good for its time, but it didn't overstay its welcome. The Black Cat relationship was interesting because it inverted the norm, with Peter Parker being the impediment to Spider-Man's love life and not the other way around. And of course, there is MJ who is notable for not only being the most long lasting love interest but also Peter's wife. But aside from those three examples, what other relationship has Peter been in that has been of any note or interest?

People seem to think that if Peter is suddenly single, the glory days of the Gwen/ MJ/ Peter love triangle will return. That is, quite frankly, naive and narrow minded thinking. Peter being single doesn't mean his stories are going to be any better, or that it is somehow any more diverse than if he is married.

The reason I believe the stories can be more diverse is simple.

With the marriage, you can only tell the stories with Peter and Mary Jane in a committed relationship.

With a single Peter Parker, you can tell those stories, in addition to other types of stories.

It isn't a cure-all for the book, but nothing is.

While you argue that the writers are restricted because they can't have Peter get married, you neglect that the writers can easily do a decade's worth of stories with Peter in a relationship before it becomes unusual for him not to be married/ engaged (hell, they can do a few years' worth of stories with Peter in a doomed engagement.)

[Mako]

Sure, its possible that things could go back to the way they were if Peter was single. Its also possible that lead could spontaneously turn into gold, and I would get a date with Anne Hathaway. Its just not bloody likely.

I agree with you. An average, nerdy guy on a comic book message board dating a super model and/or actress like Anne Hathaway would be incredibly stupid. It would make that kind of person unrelatable to other average nerdy guys who post on comic book message boards. The only thing MORE unrelatable would be if Anne Hathaway married you. That would be monumentally stupid.

It's good to see that on a subconscious level you agree with the basic need for the un-marriage.

[RDMacQ]

I agree with you. An average, nerdy guy on a comic book message board dating a super model and/or actress like Anne Hathaway would be incredibly stupid. It would make that kind of person unrelatable to other average nerdy guys who post on comic book message boards. The only thing MORE unrelatable would be if Anne Hathaway married you. That would be monumentally stupid.

It's good to see that on a subconscious level you agree with the basic need for the un-marriage.

Wow, that's just..... I mean.... Holy crap, dude, are you serious?

I'm not likely to date Anne Hathaway because we come from completely different social circles, not to mention living in completely different parts of the world, PLUS a lot of other reasons. Statistically, it could happen (anything is in the realm of possibility). My point was its unrealistic to expect the impossible to happen, or to alter things for that impossibility to happen. Way to read way more into something that wasn't there.

[Matt Linton]

But that's assuming that a female character can be created that will equal or even surpass MJ in terms of popularity, longevity, and mass media appeal.

And I understand that you are saying that things COULD happen this way. What I'm saying is that given Marvel's current attitude towards the Spider-Man books, that seems unlikely since it seems counter-productive to their intent for the character. They want him to stay young, single and relatable- which means he won't have any serious relationship with anyone develop past a certain point. Given the lengths the creators went to dissolve Spider-Man's longest lasting relationship, I don't think its likely that any subsequent relationship has any chance of lasting beyond the dating stage.

Dating, in and of itself, is a pretty broad term. It encompasses everything from the already seen speed dating, to casual dating that turns into friendship, to a long-term relationship. Just because we've seen Peter dating in the past, it doesn't mean we've seen every possible story where Peter and a woman are dating.

And the appeal to Marvel at the moment is that a relationship where Peter and a woman aren't married can last any length of time they want, and if or when they decide to end the relationship, they don't have to deal with any "Spidey Gets Divorced!" headlines or any supernatural explanations.

[RDMacQ]

The reason I believe the stories can be more diverse is simple.

With the marriage, you can only tell the stories with Peter and Mary Jane in a committed relationship.

With a single Peter Parker, you can tell those stories, in addition to other types of stories.

It isn't a cure-all for the book, but nothing is.

While you argue that the writers are restricted because they can't have Peter get married, you neglect that the writers can easily do a decade's worth of stories with Peter in a relationship before it becomes unusual for him not to be married/ engaged (hell, they can do a few years' worth of stories with Peter in a doomed engagement.)

But that is just your personal interpretation of the franchise. It is not absolute stated fact, not it is is capable of being proven beyond a reasonable doubt. But just for argument's sake-

With a single Spider-man, there is only one place for the relationship to go, and that is in the dumpsters because Marvel has absolutely stated that the character cannot develop beyond a certain point. Why care about his relationship with Girl A since you know it will ultimately end in ruins. With the marriage, you essentially avoid that unnecessary relationship entanglement and allow the creators to focus on other aspects of the mythos that may have gone by the wayside. In addition, the marriage prevents writers from simply rehashing old storylines since they have to constantly try new things to constantly move forward, creating a nice "unknown" factor in the books that haven't been around in a while. The fact of the matter is the readers know any relationship Peter gets involved in WON'T go anywhere and WON'T develop past a certain point, so why bother becoming attached to any character that is introduced? Marvel has pretty much established that Peter won't develop past a certain point- OMD proved that. In addition, what's the point of creating a new character, and establishing her, and focusing on her, and taking the time to make her into someone who would be someone Peter would choose to become engaged to, when Marvel already has a character like that in MJ? Its just a lot easier, logistically and narratively, to focus on MJ's character that take the time to create someone new to try and replace her.

Again, its easy- and convenient- to say that Marvel COULD have Peter get engaged in a new relationship with someone, and this relationship COULD move in this direction or that direction. But that pretty much ignores all the work that Marvel did to undo the longest lasting relationship in Peter's life to get him back to a specific point.

[RDMacQ]

Dating, in and of itself, is a pretty broad term. It encompasses everything from the already seen speed dating, to casual dating that turns into friendship, to a long-term relationship. Just because we've seen Peter dating in the past, it doesn't mean we've seen every possible story where Peter and a woman are dating.

And the appeal to Marvel at the moment is that a relationship where Peter and a woman aren't married can last any length of time they want, and if or when they decide to end the relationship, they don't have to deal with any "Spidey Gets Divorced!" headlines or any supernatural explanations.

Variations on a theme. Call it whatever you want, but no matter what Peter does with "dating" be it speed dating or maybe just being friends with benefits, its still Peter dating. And to use your own argument, just because we've seen Peter married to MJ in the past, that doesn't mean that we've seen every possible story where Peter and MJ are married.

And the marriage could've last any length of time Marvel wanted either. The relationship doesn't HAVE to end to create drama. It again shows that people don't expect any relationship that Peter engages in to last. If that is the case and you simply accept the fact that the relationship is never going to develop past a certain point, then doesn't that just divorce the reader from any suspension of disbelief?

[Mako]

I'm not likely to date Anne Hathaway because we come from completely different social circles, not to mention living in completely different parts of the world, PLUS a lot of other reasons. Statistically, it could happen (anything is in the realm of possibility).

No. I think we can all agree that your biggest stumbling block to dating Anne Hathaway is that, like most of us, you're an average comic book nerd posting on a message board. Social circles, geography, and everything else besides that are the least of your problems.

My point was its unrealistic to expect the impossible to happen, or to alter things for that impossibility to happen.

And the EXCELLENT example you were using to make your point-- how "unrealistic" it would be for a nerdy guy to date a supermodel-worthy actress like Anne Hathaway, ALSO makes another EXCELLENT point for the need for the "un-marriage." It's just nice that you were the one making it.

Way to read way more into something that wasn't there.

No. Congratulations to you for putting that crystal clear point into your argument.

[Leocomix]

And the marriage could've last any length of time Marvel wanted either. The relationship doesn't HAVE to end to create drama. It again shows that people don't expect any relationship that Peter engages in to last. If that is the case and you simply accept the fact that the relationship is never going to develop past a certain point, then doesn't that just divorce the reader from any suspension of disbelief?

No reader expects anything to last. If we did, why come back for the next issue? It's the uncertainty of the single status as opposed to the certainty of the married status which makes ASM interesting. (No wonder I stopped reading once he was married, it would divorce most readers from reading it)

[RDMacQ]

No reader expects anything to last. If we did, why come back for the next issue? It's the uncertainty of the single status as opposed to the certainty of the married status which makes ASM interesting. (No wonder I stopped reading once he was married, it would divorce most readers from reading it)

Well, one would think that the creator would want the reader to have some sort of connection to the work they are creating. If the customer merely expects the relationship to end, then why should they care about Peter's love interest. I would argue that the marriage adds a level of uncertainty, because we have no idea where the relationship will go. Sure they are going to remain married, but there is always the possibility of new jobs, new family members, and other factors that pop up in real life. The initial fun part of the Gwen, MJ and Peter love triangle is that there was an uncertainty of where it was going to go. But if every relationship is supposed to end, that kind of ruins the uncertainty aspect of said relationship which many people find interesting. And just because you stopped reading because Peter got married, doesn't mean it divorces most readers from it. In fact, Spider-Man sales increased after he was married- due in large part to Todd MacFarlane's influence, which goes to show it is the creators involved and not necessarily the status quo. I came on board the book after Spidey was married as well, and I stayed on mostly because of the work of Mark Bagley. I think you are putting far too much emphasis on Spider-Man's marital status being the litmus test on a reader's interest in the character.

[RDMacQ]

No. I think we can all agree that your biggest stumbling block to dating Anne Hathaway is that, like most of us, you're an average comic book nerd posting on a message board. Social circles, geography, and everything else besides that are the least of your problems.

And the EXCELLENT example you were using to make your point-- how "unrealistic" it would be for a nerdy guy to date a supermodel-worthy actress like Anne Hathaway, ALSO makes another EXCELLENT point for the need for the "un-marriage." It's just nice that you were the one making it.

Wow, you're making... a LOT of assumptions about me and my character based on nothing more than postings on an internet message board. Plus, you seem to be ignoring a lot of what I said in order to twist it in support of your argument.

[Leocomix]

Well, one would think that the creator would want the reader to have some sort of connection to the work they are creating. If the customer merely expects the relationship to end, then why should they care about Peter's love interest. I would argue that the marriage adds a level of uncertainty, because we have no idea where the relationship will go. Sure they are going to remain married, but there is always the possibility of new jobs, new family members, and other factors that pop up in real life. The initial fun part of the Gwen, MJ and Peter love triangle is that there was an uncertainty of where it was going to go. But if every relationship is supposed to end, that kind of ruins the uncertainty aspect of said relationship which many people find interesting. And just because you stopped reading because Peter got married, doesn't mean it divorces most readers from it. In fact, Spider-Man sales increased after he was married- due in large part to Todd MacFarlane's influence, which goes to show it is the creators involved and not necessarily the status quo. I came on board the book after Spidey was married as well, and I stayed on mostly because of the work of Mark Bagley. I think you are putting far too much emphasis on Spider-Man's marital status being the litmus test on a reader's interest in the character.

The customer has few expectations beyond being entertained. That is the tacit agreement and the only way one can care about it. Telling readers, "that's the end of Parker's trials in trying to find a fellow soul" is the best way to drive off readers.
I don't know why you put there this "every relationship is supposed to end". Can't you read a comic book one at a time? It has to be a dostoyevskyan novel? Nothing in ASM states relationships will end, it's just in your head.

[RDMacQ]

The customer has few expectations beyond being entertained. That is the tacit agreement and the only way one can care about it. Telling readers, "that's the end of Parker's trials in trying to find a fellow soul" is the best way to drive off readers.
I don't know why you put there this "every relationship is supposed to end". Can't you read a comic book one at a time? It has to be a dostoyevskyan novel? Nothing in ASM states relationships will end, it's just in your head.

That's making a pretty big assumption about the reading audience. Like you said, the customer has few expectations beyond being entertained. Thats quite a leap to go from that to assume that said entertainment completely hinges on whether or not Spider-Man finds his soul mate.

And I never argued that every relationship with Peter has to end. I've argued AGAINST that idea, since it seems to presume that in order to make things interesting or progressive for the book, Peter's given relationship with any character has to have the option of being discontinued. And I would argue that yes, Marvel has stated that relationships in ASM have to end, or else they would not have gone through with a story like OMD- the point of said storyline was to get Peter to a point where he would be "free" and "single." If Marvel doesn't want Spider-Man's relationship with anyone to progress beyond a certain point and will go to the lengths that OMD went to, then it pretty much proves that every relationship Peter is in is in some way destined to end in some form or another in order to create "diversity" and ensure "the long term success of the franchise."