'50s Cap and Bucky

[GHalecki]

Would there be anyone else out there interested in seeing an extended story about the 50's Cap and Bucky? I think that there is a lot of untapped material there to be mined.
It would be interesting to see them in light of the fact that as readers we already KNOW how the story ends, but we don't have a lot of the details about how they got there.
I could see 50's Steve starting out a a real solid, tough nosed charachter with his heart in the right place, trying to live up to the legacy of his hero. He would have a solid sense of right and wrong as far as the morality of the time went. This would be a great chance to show a very diferent side of the McCarthy era then what we ever see. A reminder of what it really was like in the days where there was a real communist threat to America, and what patriotism and heroism meant in that time. We could see him slowly slide toward the man he is destined to become as his sanity begins to crack, all the while fighting a legitemate threat to his country.
As fans today all we see of the charachter is the bad side. We have images of him imagining communits plots around every corner, racked with xenophobia and paranoia. Imagine seeing him not as a villian, but as the tragically fallen hero that I think he could be portrayed as. Imagine that this paranoia was caused at least in part by a long fight against ACTUAL emeny plots, where there sometimes WERE spies around every corner. Don't show him as a crackpot, but show him as a hero, someone worthy (at least for a time) of carrying the shield, but who lost his grip on reality over time, along with his moral compass.
I think that this would make him a far more compelling villian for use today as an antagonist for the new Cap.

Just a thought. Comments?

[vitruvian]

Would there be anyone else out there interested in seeing an extended story about the 50's Cap and Bucky? I think that there is a lot of untapped material there to be mined.
It would be interesting to see them in light of the fact that as readers we already KNOW how the story ends, but we don't have a lot of the details about how they got there.
I could see 50's Steve starting out a a real solid, tough nosed charachter with his heart in the right place, trying to live up to the legacy of his hero. He would have a solid sense of right and wrong as far as the morality of the time went. This would be a great chance to show a very diferent side of the McCarthy era then what we ever see. A reminder of what it really was like in the days where there was a real communist threat to America, and what patriotism and heroism meant in that time. We could see him slowly slide toward the man he is destined to become as his sanity begins to crack, all the while fighting a legitemate threat to his country.
As fans today all we see of the charachter is the bad side. We have images of him imagining communits plots around every corner, racked with xenophobia and paranoia. Imagine seeing him not as a villian, but as the tragically fallen hero that I think he could be portrayed as. Imagine that this paranoia was caused at least in part by a long fight against ACTUAL emeny plots, where there sometimes WERE spies around every corner. Don't show him as a crackpot, but show him as a hero, someone worthy (at least for a time) of carrying the shield, but who lost his grip on reality over time, along with his moral compass.
I think that this would make him a far more compelling villian for use today as an antagonist for the new Cap.

Just a thought. Comments?

Actually, the 50s Cap/Grand Director has been basically resurrected (not technically, the idea is that his death was faked by Faustus) and is running around free in Brubaker's series. I would bet there are plans for him in the current day, maybe even some kind of flashback from his viewpoint could take up an issue or two. I agree that exploring the character could be fascinating.

[GHalecki]

That is exactly what got me thinking about this. He is out there, and I can only imagine that Bru brought him back in order to use him. He can be a "What If Captain America lost sight of the American Dream" as opposed to a "What if someone was kind of like Cap but bad?"

But if they just wanted someone out there to be just a bad version of Cap, there are other options out there. Particularly Protocide, who was first and last seen near the end of the previous Cap series. For those who don't know or remember him, he was another subject for Project: Rebirth. He was a far superior physical specimin, but a lowlife. He was kept in suspended animation between then and modern times. He was last seen just wandering down the road forgotten and aimless. Or there is the Red Skull, or Flag Smasher. Or just a generic jerk with augmented strengh with a bad attitude that is pushing for "his America", like USAgent was originally, but worse.

My dream story would be an epic storyline with Jim and John Walker against the 50's Cap and Protocide. They could explore the deeper meaning behind WHAT Captain America is and means, and how it was shaped by the various men who wore the costume (or almost wore it).

[Leebenhouse]

I'd like to see it, especially if Howard Chaykin did it, he was pretty good on his special that featured the 1950's Cap. Maybe they could even reveal his true identity, especially if the mini was a longer one, in the run of 6-8 issues instead of just 4.

[Jmacq1]

I'd like to see it, especially if Howard Chaykin did it, he was pretty good on his special that featured the 1950's Cap. Maybe they could even reveal his true identity, especially if the mini was a longer one, in the run of 6-8 issues instead of just 4.

Well, his identity is kind of known. Not his original name, but he was basically just a dude that was obsessed with Captain America to the point of changing his name and undergoing plastic surgery to become Captain America in his absence. Kinda unbalanced from the get-go, really. However one interesting point that I seem to remember (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) was that he was also a scientist/researcher who actually re-created the Super-Soldier Serum (albeit without the "vita-ray" treatment to stabilize it and prevent eventual sanity decay). If that was true (and I could be mis-remembering) that'd also make him pretty brilliant scientifically-speaking, and an underused aspect of the character.

However, if they wanted to make him more sympathetic, it could easily be retconned that he was "recruited" for those changes and his memories are simply messed up either by brainwashing or his own insanity (or both).

[Thomas Uk]

I'd like to see a new line of titles based in the WW2 'golden era' with characters like the Invaders and Cap etc taking centre stage but more grounded in the history of the war and without the campiness that the 70's invaders titles had. (although I like that I'd like to see something different). Something as powerful as the section of 'marvels' which took place in that era. It could involve a re-telling of the human torch's origin and the Sub-maribner's for example but situated in the bigger picture with lots of crossovers.

[Jmacq1]

I'd like to see a new line of titles based in the WW2 'golden era' with characters like the Invaders and Cap etc taking centre stage but more grounded in the history of the war and without the campiness that the 70's invaders titles had. (although I like that I'd like to see something different). Something as powerful as the section of 'marvels' which took place in that era. It could involve a re-telling of the human torch's origin and the Sub-maribner's for example but situated in the bigger picture with lots of crossovers.

Uhm...didn't they just announce something kinda similar to this? Brubaker and Epting doing a World War II era title with Cap and the Invaders? I think they described it as "Kinda like Ultimate Origins for the regular Marvel Universe."

[Thomas Uk]

Uhm...didn't they just announce something kinda similar to this? Brubaker and Epting doing a World War II era title with Cap and the Invaders? I think they described it as "Kinda like Ultimate Origins for the regular Marvel Universe."

Oh really? Cool! haha.

[Leebenhouse]

Well, his identity is kind of known. Not his original name, but he was basically just a dude that was obsessed with Captain America to the point of changing his name and undergoing plastic surgery to become Captain America in his absence. Kinda unbalanced from the get-go, really. However one interesting point that I seem to remember (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) was that he was also a scientist/researcher who actually re-created the Super-Soldier Serum (albeit without the "vita-ray" treatment to stabilize it and prevent eventual sanity decay). If that was true (and I could be mis-remembering) that'd also make him pretty brilliant scientifically-speaking, and an underused aspect of the character.

However, if they wanted to make him more sympathetic, it could easily be retconned that he was "recruited" for those changes and his memories are simply messed up either by brainwashing or his own insanity (or both).

Well, yeah, but I mean his true identity, not "Steve Rogers". I think the Chaykin one-shot had him as someone who discovered a copy of the serum, then the government did the surgery on him so they could have another Captain America. In the past it had just been said that he had surgery to make himself look like Steve Rogers, but it sounded like he did it on his own.

A better retcon would be that he was a huge Cap fan and that was how they recruited him, sort of like how Cap was initially recruited to Project:Rebirth, and that the defective Super-Soldier Serum was what made him batty from day one.

Seriously, how many people over the years have had Super-Soldier serums and came out of it fine, while 50's Cap and Nomad are the only ones who had a problem with it. The only other people to get screwed over by it were the black guys from the Truth mini-series, and even then, Isaiah Bradley(or was that his son's name) was only really screwed over by a lack of medical treatment for the after effects of his serum.

[Jmacq1]

Ted Sallis (Man-Thing) was partially created by an attempt to recreate the Super-Soldier Serum.

Protocide wasn't exactly a bastion of sanity, either.

There aren't that many people that have gotten straight "super soldier serum" to begin with. Diamondback got it from a blood transfusion with Cap, so it was already "stabilized" when it got to her.

In fact, there's no one in the Marvel Universe I know of that's been infused with the true Super-Soldier Serum - Vita Ray treatment and come out perfectly OK.

[christoph68]

the '50s cap thing could be cool, but i'd like to see both that cap and bucky in action back then [more than the little they showed in cap's 1970 run].

it's too bad that jack monroe is dead now because there could have been some cool stories with the '50s cap and bucky hunted by the new cap and a small crew of his trying to bring them both in and save or secure them, while the 50's cap and bucky think that everyone has gone "crazy commie" on them and they have to save the people of united states.

[GHalecki]

the '50s cap thing could be cool, but i'd like to see both that cap and bucky in action back then [more than the little they showed in cap's 1970 run].

it's too bad that jack monroe is dead now because there could have been some cool stories with the '50s cap and bucky hunted by the new cap and a small crew of his trying to bring them both in and save or secure them, while the 50's cap and bucky think that everyone has gone "crazy commie" on them and they have to save the people of united states.

That really would have made a great story. Probably the ONLY thing about Bru's Cap run I really dislike is him having Jack killed off. It really was a waste of a charachter with a ton of potential. It is also one of the few cases that I wouldn't mind the retcon beast coming out and them saying "he's not really dead" even though we saw it explicitly happen on page. Any method that is even remotely plausable could be excused to accomplish this would be ok in my book, to fix this big wrong.

[Leebenhouse]

Ted Sallis (Man-Thing) was partially created by an attempt to recreate the Super-Soldier Serum.

Protocide wasn't exactly a bastion of sanity, either.

There aren't that many people that have gotten straight "super soldier serum" to begin with. Diamondback got it from a blood transfusion with Cap, so it was already "stabilized" when it got to her.

In fact, there's no one in the Marvel Universe I know of that's been infused with the true Super-Soldier Serum - Vita Ray treatment and come out perfectly OK.

There have been at least a dozen who had Super-Soldier serums. Captain Midlands, all three Destroyers (including Union Jack II), a bad guy from the Man-Thing book, and one of the officers from The Truth mini took a variant. Apparently the Black Widow has been retconned into taking a super-soldier serum as well.

[Hypestyle]

hey, if Chaykin can do another one-shot or mini, might as well go for it.. explore more of the "atlas-timely" era goings on...

[Jmacq1]

There have been at least a dozen who had Super-Soldier serums. Captain Midlands, all three Destroyers (including Union Jack II), a bad guy from the Man-Thing book, and one of the officers from The Truth mini took a variant. Apparently the Black Widow has been retconned into taking a super-soldier serum as well.

There's a wide gulf of difference between "a" super-soldier serum and "the" Super-Soldier Serum.