Could Mephisto own Mary Jane's soul?

[ShaggyB]

Unborn and possibly unconceived. It's possible to read the story as MJ being pregnant or the child simply being the child that they would have someday had if they'd not made the deal.

And, as you point out, he didn't know, so he didn't really sacrifice her.

honestly matt.... theres no point in discussing it with him. He doesnt seem to even admit that Mj played an equal part in the deal. Nor has he admitted to being wrong about a soul being up for grabs in the deal

[Jim Thompson]

Nor has he admitted to being wrong about a soul being up for grabs in the deal

Just like, so far, no one on the other side of the discussion seems to be willing to acknowledge they don't yet know if there was a soul up for grabs in the deal.

[ShaggyB]

Just like, so far, no one on the other side of the discussion seems to be willing to acknowledge they don't yet know if there was a soul up for grabs in the deal.

there wasnt. marriage for aunt may.

You can argue the concept of what happens to the unborn child but that soul isnt born so its not up for grabs. If MJ and Peter have a one night stand that soul can still be born.

[Jim Thompson]

there wasnt. marriage for aunt may.

You can argue the concept of what happens to the unborn child but that soul isnt born so its not up for grabs. If MJ and Peter have a one night stand that soul can still be born.

What did MJ whisper to Mephisto?

[ShaggyB]

What did MJ whisper to Mephisto?

cant be you can have the soul of my unborn child.... its not hers to give, hence the unborn child part... still would be a non existent soul

[Jim Thompson]

cant be you can have the soul of my unborn child.... its not hers to give, hence the unborn child part... still would be a non existent soul

Stay with me here -- you're so locked in on this kid I think you're missing my point:

Who's to say MJ didn't offer her soul to Mephisto to help Peter out?

[ShaggyB]

Stay with me here -- you're so locked in on this kid you're missing my point:

Who's to say MJ didn't offer her soul to Mephisto to help Peter out?

ahh, ok then ill be the first to admit she may have, considering the possibility is there. That however doesnt effect peter's soul which was what dude was saying was up for grabs.

[Jim Thompson]

ahh, ok then ill be the first to admit she may have, considering the possibility is there. That however doesnt effect peter's soul which was what dude was saying was up for grabs.

I don't remember if he specified that or not, but, regardless, that wasn't the point I was originally driving at: My point was people on the other side of the discussion were as unwilling to consider the notion there was a soul up for grabs as he was to consider the notion there wasn't. And the only thing one can say with any certainty is, the story is ambiguous about it.

[Mister Mets]

Stay with me here -- you're so locked in on this kid I think you're missing my point:

Who's to say MJ didn't offer her soul to Mephisto to help Peter out?

Mephisto explicitly said that he wasn't interested in souls given for noble purposes. So it's probably not that simple.

[Jim Thompson]

Mephisto explicitly said that he wasn't interested in souls given for noble purposes. So it's probably not that simple.

Maybe -- but again the point here is no one knows for sure. The story doesn't give one that clear an answer.

EDIT: After all -- who knows what Mephisto considers to be a noble cause? And he has been known to lie.

[Mister Mets]

Maybe -- but again the point here is no one knows for sure. The story doesn't give one that clear an answer.

EDIT: After all -- who knows what Mephisto considers to be a noble cause? And he has been known to lie.

While he has been known to lie, it's generally through sins of omission or twisting his words, which isn't the case here.

Unless he's outright lying (which is rare), I'm unaware of any other possible interpretation of his speech on the souls of noble sacrifices than to say that he's not interested in those types of deals.

[Jim Thompson]

While he has been known to lie, it's generally through sins of omission or twisting his words, which isn't the case here.

Unless he's outright lying (which is rare), I'm unaware of any other possible interpretation of his speech on the souls of noble sacrifices than to say that he's not interested in those types of deals.

So you're making a guess just like everyone else -- cause you can't say for sure.

[Mister Mets]

So you're making a guess just like everyone else -- cause you can't say for sure.

Difference is that guessing that Mary Jane traded her soul contradicts the information given to readers (and it represents one of many possibilities for what she whispered.) Plus, as it's only a guess right now, it should never be interpreted as a reason to dislike OMD and by extension BND.

[Jim Thompson]

Difference is that guessing that Mary Jane traded her soul contradicts the information given to readers (and it represents one of many possibilities for what she whispered.) Plus, as it's only a guess right now, it should never be interpreted as a reason to dislike OMD and by extension BND.

No -- it contradicts your interpretation of the infomation given to the readers. And even then, you've still acknowledged earlier just because the character says one thing doesn't mean he'll stay true to his word.

As to it being a reason to like or dislike OMD -- why shouldn't it be a reason? Isn't the ambiguity the story has left in some readers minds enough to qualify it for being an argument why one didn't like the story? And, since the issue hasn't been fully resolved, isn't it at least in play for some of the stories being told in the new direction?

This wanting to tell people they are wrong simply because one disagrees with them is increasingly bothering me (and not just here).

[Mister Mets]

No -- it contradicts your interpretation of the infomation given to the readers. And even then, you've still acknowledged earlier just because the character says one thing doesn't mean he'll stay true to his word.

As to it being a reason to like or dislike OMD -- why shouldn't it be a reason? Isn't the ambiguity the story has left in some readers minds enough to qualify it for being an argument why one didn't like the story? And, since the issue hasn't been fully resolved, isn't it at least in play for some of the stories being told in the new direction?

This wanting to tell people they are wrong simply because one disagrees with them is increasingly bothering me (and not just here).

I think it's a silly reason to dislike OMD, because there's nothing in the script to indicate that Mary Jane willingly gave up her soul, and it would be "cheating" if it were later revealed that Mephisto had outright lied, and actually loves the souls of noble sacrifices.

It would be different if the writers ever teased the possibility that MJ willingly gave up her soul.

It would be slightly less ridiculous for someone to dislike the Clone Saga because John Jameson may have been a murderer, as the possibility that Jameson was Facade was raised and not directly refuted in "Live and Let Die."

In this case, you're holding a possibility that hasn't happened yet against the creative team, and that's just not fair.

Plus, some OMD critics have argued as if it's a fact that MJ and/ or Peter gave up their souls. While the writers could reveal that Mary Jane offered Mephisto her soul and her eternal memory (so she should would never remember the sacrifice, and therefore her soul would never find comfort) it seems wrong to use this possibility as if it were a probability or an absolute fact. I'm generally opposed to a "Guilty until proven innocent" mentality in pretty much any situation, and that's really the only way to hold a small possibility against the series.