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  1. #91
    Paper Tigeress Violently Apathetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corrina View Post
    I do think giving away work is a valuable marketing tool. But it is not an excuse for doing so without the permission of the creator. Otherwise, it's the same as grabbing a book off the shelf in a store and walking out the door with it without paying.
    I'd argue that in scans_daily's case it's more like picking up the book in the store, skimming it, turning to your buddy and asking 'Hey, is this book any good?' and deciding if it's worth buying based on that.

    And my LCS lets me do that. Because they're awesome.
    Oh.I must say Im surprised at how readily you boys bastardized your code of ethics in order to justify a morally dubious decision. That was very grown up of you. - Cornfed

  2. #92
    Are you watching closely? mistervader's Avatar
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    Of course they're well within their rights to do what they did.

    In the end, I can't get mad at them. It was their right to call S_D out on what we were doing, but at the same time, I'd like to think that like the rest of the people who have said as much, S_D did more good than harm in the long run. Didn't S_D have a part in keeping Spider-Girl alive longer than it should've?
    Right here, in this very ring...

    www.mistervader.blogspot.com

  3. #93
    Extraterrestrial dragon. Arrogantcur's Avatar
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    From personal experience and also based on what other people in other parts of the world have said, most people who run LCS's will not mind if you pick up a book and flip through it, so long as it's not one of the back issues in a sealed bag.

    Well, now I'm wondering how Peter David acts in a comics shop. How do you think he'd react if he saw somebody pick up a copy of "X-Factor," flip through it, and then put it back? Do you think he'd get in their face? Do you think he'd grab it out of their hands?

    You know what's sad? I'm not entirely kidding when I ask those questions. I think that he really might get pissed enough to do one or both of those things.

    Also, if somebody did flip through an issue of some book and put it back? They are probably not thinking "cool, now I know what happens so I don't need to buy it." They are probably thinking "that book kind of sucks, I don't want to buy it." I doubt that allowing people to look inside a book before they buy it hurts sales much at all.
    Last edited by Arrogantcur; 02-28-2009 at 07:03 AM.
    "His name is Kettch, and he's an Ewok."
    "No."
    "Oh yes. Determined to fight. You should hear him say 'Yub, yub.' He makes it a battle cry."

  4. #94
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrogantcur View Post
    From personal experience and also based on what other people in other parts of the world have said, most people who run LCS's will not mind if you pick up a book and flip through it, so long as it's not one of the back issues in a sealed bag.

    Well, now I'm wondering how Peter David acts in a comics shop. How do you think he'd react if he saw somebody pick up a copy of "X-Factor," flip through it, and then put it back? Do you think he'd get in their face? Do you think he'd grab it out of their hands?

    You know what's sad? I'm not entirely kidding when I ask those questions. I think that he really might get pissed enough to do one or both of those things.

    Also, if somebody did flip through an issue of some book and put it back? They are probably not thinking "cool, now I know what happens so I don't need to buy it." They are probably thinking "that book kind of sucks, I don't want to buy it." I doubt that allowing people to look inside a book before they buy it hurts sales much at all.
    I think he would probably get mad if the person ran through the store telling everyone what happens in the book, especially since PAD asked him not to.

  5. #95
    Paper Tigeress Violently Apathetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaulTheCat View Post
    I think he would probably get mad if the person ran through the store telling everyone what happens in the book, especially since PAD asked him not to.
    Oh, for God's sake (where's a facepalm emoticon when you need one?), the spoilers were behind a cut. Only people who WANTED to be spoiled would be spoiled. To keep the comic store analogy going it's more like someone whispering 'Hey, the ending is really good/weird/stupid! You should read it' and the interested parties picking up the book and flipping to the last page themselves.

    This is not a case of 'SNAPE KILLED DUMBLEDORE'
    Oh.I must say Im surprised at how readily you boys bastardized your code of ethics in order to justify a morally dubious decision. That was very grown up of you. - Cornfed

  6. #96
    Extraterrestrial dragon. Arrogantcur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaulTheCat View Post
    I think he would probably get mad if the person ran through the store telling everyone what happens in the book, especially since PAD asked him not to.
    I don't think that's a good analogy. A better analogy would be if the person said "Hey, do you want to know what happens in this book? I'll tell you if you want to know, but I won't tell you if you don't want to hear spoilers."

    Because that's what SD did. Everybody was aware they were going to get spoilers before they started reading.

    EDIT: Violently Apathetic, I owe you a Coke. It is in the mail. Here's something kind of like a facepalm, if it helps:

    Visit either http://www.gangsterbb.net/emoticons/ or http://www.fanforum.com/misc.php?do=showsmilies With FanForum, you'll need to right-click on the smilie itself and select "copy image location."
    Last edited by Arrogantcur; 02-28-2009 at 07:14 AM.
    "His name is Kettch, and he's an Ewok."
    "No."
    "Oh yes. Determined to fight. You should hear him say 'Yub, yub.' He makes it a battle cry."

  7. #97
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violently Apathetic View Post
    Oh, for God's sake (where's a facepalm emoticon when you need one?), the spoilers were behind a cut. Only people who WANTED to be spoiled would be spoiled. To keep the comic store analogy going it's more like someone whispering 'Hey, the ending is really good/weird/stupid! You should read it' and the interested parties picking up the book and flipping to the last page themselves.

    This is not a case of 'SNAPE KILLED DUMBLEDORE'
    Obviously, PAD thought it was.

  8. #98
    Paper Tigeress Violently Apathetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrogantcur View Post
    EDIT: Violently Apathetic, I owe you a Coke. It is in the mail.
    I prefer Dr. Pepper!

    I feel I need to reiterate, I understand PAD and Marvel's reasoning, I know scans_daily was in the 'wrong,' I simply feel that it was a very benign, even beneficial 'wrong' to be in.

    And I sure hope all these champions of copyright download their music through the proper channels, never watch clips of licensed material on youtube and have never touched a torrent.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaulTheCat View Post
    Obviously, PAD thought it was.
    Well, let's just say that PAD thinks a LOT of things...
    Last edited by Violently Apathetic; 02-28-2009 at 07:22 AM.
    Oh.I must say Im surprised at how readily you boys bastardized your code of ethics in order to justify a morally dubious decision. That was very grown up of you. - Cornfed

  9. #99
    Extraterrestrial dragon. Arrogantcur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaulTheCat View Post
    Obviously, PAD thought it was.
    And I think it wasn't. Since PAD's opinion is worth no more than my own, they cancel each other out. Add to that the opinions of lots of other people who think it wasn't, and the majority of people think it wasn't. Therefore, if we're going by opinion, it wasn't.

    In other words, what PAD thinks doesn't matter. Regardless of what your job is, what line of work you're in, your opinion on anything is just another opinion worth no more or less than anybody else's.
    "His name is Kettch, and he's an Ewok."
    "No."
    "Oh yes. Determined to fight. You should hear him say 'Yub, yub.' He makes it a battle cry."

  10. #100
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violently Apathetic View Post
    I prefer Dr. Pepper!

    I feel I need to reiterate, I understand PAD and Marvel's reasoning, I know scans_daily was in the 'wrong,' I simply feel that it was a very benign, even beneficial 'wrong' to be in.

    And I sure hope all these champions of copyright download their music through the proper channels, never watch clips of licensed material on youtube and have never touched a torrent.
    All I know is PAD asked people to please not spoil the story, which I guess would include posting pages on the net.
    Looking at the aftermath (second hand, mind you), he appears he posted on the s_d site, and was told, among other things to 'die in a fire' and that he didn't belong there.
    I can see where he would be a little pissed. I wouldn't have gone as far as report the site, but I can certainly understand the motivation.

  11. #101
    Swing your razor wide. Grazzt's Avatar
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    While it's sad to lose the scans of comics in print, I think the even bigger tragedy is the rarities that might get lost with scans_daily's suspension. I mean, there were old Marvel (I think they were still Timely or Atlas, that's how old they were) horror stories, bits and pieces of Miracleman, the ongoing Suicide Squad retrospective (why DC hasn't reprint them is beyond me), comics from famous authors at early stages of their careers (did you know Alan Moore did a cat comic?), and so much more that can be hard or even downright impossible to track down and buy.

  12. #102
    Paper Tigeress Violently Apathetic's Avatar
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    I can understand the motivation as well, and I certainly don't condone the behaviour of some of our more zealous members. I've never understood why people attack the writer rather than the material (unless the writer is saying or doing something unquestionably vile). However I don't think that sort of behavior is limited to scans_daily, nor do I think one individual saying someone doesn't belongs there speaks for the community, ESPECIALLY when the mods themselves intervene (and they did) and state that is not the case.

    DIAF...I can understand PAD's sensitivity to the phrase, but at the same time I think most people with sense would realize it's not really a wish of physical harm.
    Oh.I must say Im surprised at how readily you boys bastardized your code of ethics in order to justify a morally dubious decision. That was very grown up of you. - Cornfed

  13. #103
    Extraterrestrial dragon. Arrogantcur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violently Apathetic View Post
    DIAF...I can understand PAD's sensitivity to the phrase, but at the same time I think most people with sense would realize it's not really a wish of physical harm.
    Why would he be sensitive to that? If somebody told me to die in a fire, I'd just tell them off and eventually forget about it.
    "His name is Kettch, and he's an Ewok."
    "No."
    "Oh yes. Determined to fight. You should hear him say 'Yub, yub.' He makes it a battle cry."

  14. #104
    Elder Member Gail Simone's Avatar
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    I'm sad because it means at least the temporary loss of a vibrant community.

    We're never going to be able to control every website and every poster and we shouldn't even really be trying. If a particular set of scans is troublesome, I believe asking the SD mods would have solved the problem.

    If we're GOING to have communities like this, and we are, how much better is it to have one like scans-daily, where both the mods and posters are aware of the concerns of creators and publishers and make a genuine effort to accommodate them? Where they not only established strict posting guidelines to prevent whole issues from being posted but also enforced them quite diligently?

    The truth is, there are only a handful of comics websites that aren't run (and sometimes very heavily edited) by vested interests, like a publisher, where a sizable number of comics readers can go and share their enthusiasm about a title with a large enough audience to actually make a difference. There was a lot of dedication there, a lot of fascinating material. Yes, there was snark. Yes, some issues were panned. Who cares? The site was very heavily weighted towards books the posters really enjoyed, and served as a sample taste for many new readers. I myself have ended up buying several Marvel books in particular that I otherwise wouldn't have even stopped to look at.

    I sympathize with any creators who felt their work was spoiled. I JUST this week had the ending of my latest issue of Wonder Woman spoiled. But I don't believe there was any malice. Quite the opposite, I believe that the poster intended only positive things and meant only to spread the word. I find that to be the motive there again and again. "Hey, I liked this book...take a look at this cool stuff in it!"

    Do we really want to try to stop that instinct?

    I propose a potential solution. I think, if S-D rebuilds, and I hope they do, I suggest that they make it part of the rules that if a creator or publisher objects to a particular post as being too spoiler-y, that the poster be given the choice to either modify or delete the offending posts. I would be very surprised if more than a tiny handful of creators took advantage of such a resource, but it would certainly show goodwill and I'm sure many skeptical creators would appreciate it. They might be brought more into the process. It's not Draconian, it's merely good faith cooperation. A creator might ask for a page to be removed. Surely that's better than having the site nuked over a single post?

    I have spoken with some S-D mods and the thing that I felt is undeniable is that they DO respect the creators and sincerely believe that what they are doing isn't hurtful. That they self-imposed their own ethical guidelines and rigorously enforce them speaks volumes.

    These people are not the enemy. They're the good guys, and the alternative is SO much worse. You think what S-D is bad?

    Watch and see what pops up in its place.


    I hope that S-D regroups and continues to promote good comics. They will have my support, such as it is, when they do so.
    Black Canary owns your world.

  15. #105
    Quasispatial Envoy Arilou's Avatar
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    I think PAD's response was, to say the least, overkill. Heck, it was overkill on the level of dropping a nuke on a shoplifter.

    Yeah, the user should probably have been banned, or at least given a warning. Telling people to die in a fire is just not OK. But nuking the entire community? That's just crazy.

    It should be noted that technically most of the scans (although a few did) didn't violate copyright rules (you ARE allowed to reproduce a certain limited amount of a work, usually something like "six pages or 25% of the work, whatever is shorter", although it depends on your specific jurisdiction)

    Still, Scans_Daily was a wonderful community that gave a lot. Heck, the most popular part was always the "Context is for the Weak" posts, that usually was just a single panel... That and the scans of old and/or foreign comics (I loved seeing the indian comics, or the ones from the 30's, you get the point)

    If your goal is bringing down copyright infringement, a better bet would be to target Piratebay or similar (their trial is ongoing, I'm sure PAD could add a few charges of his own) if the intention is to avoid spoilers... Well, that's a different matter, and one that, strictly speaking, PAD has absolutely no right to do.

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