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  1. #106
    Tower of Power cernunnos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronMagnus View Post
    Photon, Sersi, and Moondragon would all be huge assets to the Avengers in the AVX fight. Bring back all three of these ladies!
    They should be involved in the fight, and so should Gilgamesh and Jack of Hearts.
    Death is light as a feather,duty heavier than a mountain. - A saying in the Borderlands

  2. #107
    Veteran Member Hypestyle's Avatar
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    considering the scale of AvsX, I hope that, in the aftermath, Monica isn't written off as doing her nails somewhere while all this is going on..

  3. #108
    Senior Member Corey W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    considering the scale of AvsX, I hope that, in the aftermath, Monica isn't written off as doing her nails somewhere while all this is going on..
    Seriously. She can travel at the speed of light, so if she is on world she can be there in under a second.

  4. #109
    Senior Member jsf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corey W View Post
    Seriously. She can travel at the speed of light, so if she is on world she can be there in under a second.
    She's also got an amazing power set. If she were involved, she'd be another of those heavy hitters that, along with Thor, would make this fairly lopsided for the Avengers.

    I'm pretty surprised Marvel hasn't made more use of her. She's a great character.
    Last edited by jsf; 04-28-2012 at 09:16 PM.

  5. #110
    Master of Narrative kelly_warrior_princess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    Ok, hold back on the condescension.
    What condescension?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    Most of us here should already know about narrative conflicts.
    Should isn't the same as does. Yes we SHOULD all know about narrative conflict: Does not mean we all DO know about narrative conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    When the character is powerful, you put them against bigger threats. Or better yet, threats that require other talents, like intellect or versatility. Even superhero battles aren't just a battle of might. You brought this up with the Lex and Superman example, and still act like this isn't a "lack of imagination" problem.
    Not at all. If you have a character that is significatnly more powerful then any other character in your shared world, then by definition you must add villains who are likewise more powerful then any other villain. At some point with this kind of pwer escelation, you break the world & it becomes unreasonable. This is a problem most commmon in shared world narrative storytelling, especially in serialised fiction, where there is already a escelation curve for conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    Yeah, Monica is faster and more powerful than most Earth bound threats. So what? There are still plenty of people within Earth and beyond it that could more than match up to her.
    You may note that i never mentioned Monica, because i don't care. My statement was directed at the idea that there is no such thing as "to powerful" when it comes to characters in a serialised shared world narrative: Clearly there is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    You think Doom can't do what Lex does to Superman? He could do worse.
    I'm sorry, but how does this have anything to do with the convept of the "to powerful" character? I'm not making a positive assertion about Monica, so the Lex/Dr Doom comparission is a moot point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    You think someone like Count Neferia or Graviton couldn't beat Monica? Hell, given the right framing, even Living Laser potentially could.
    Again, i'm not making a positive assertion about Monica. I'm making no comment about Monica at all, either positive or negative. I'm just refuting the idea that there is no such thing as to powerful a character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    The way to deal with a character like Monica is not to put her up against people she would easily demolish. And if you do, make sure they are a part of a bigger issue.
    As above: You've Texas sharp-shootered a little there kid. You are arguing against an ideal by mistakenly linking two unrelated topics. You are trying to disprove the first, to defend the second, without realising they are two completely different statements, that aren't mutually exclusive. Essentially you are trying to protect Monica, be arguing that there is no such thing as a to powerful character. There is such a thing as a to powerful character & that has nothing to do with the existance of Monica... At all.
    Last edited by kelly_warrior_princess; 04-28-2012 at 10:04 PM.

  6. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    Ok, hold back on the condescension. Most of us here should already know about narrative conflicts.

    When the character is powerful, you put them against bigger threats. Or better yet, threats that require other talents, like intellect or versatility. Even superhero battles aren't just a battle of might. You brought this up with the Lex and Superman example, and still act like this isn't a "lack of imagination" problem.

    Yeah, Monica is faster and more powerful than most Earth bound threats. So what? There are still plenty of people within Earth and beyond it that could more than match up to her.

    You think Doom can't do what Lex does to Superman? He could do worse.

    You think someone like Count Neferia or Graviton couldn't beat Monica? Hell, given the right framing, even Living Laser potentially could.


    The way to deal with a character like Monica is not to put her up against people she would easily demolish. And if you do, make sure they are a part of a bigger issue.
    I completely agree, despite her vast powers she still has many completely human vulnerabilities; for instance:

    Magic - although I think she got jobbed by the Wrecking Crew in their fight, it did demonstrate her vulnerability to the wildcard that is magic;

    Psionics - any alpha-level telepath could likely take her out in her human form, and someeven in her energy-forms;

    Elementals, and other energy manipulators would make worthy foes: Graviton, Living Laser, Magneto, Starhawk, the heralds of Galactus, Eternals, etc;

    Alien super-science could provide various tramp-cards against her abilities....

    The point is that there are plenty of ways to circumscribe her power-level for a particular story without radically nerfing the character for cheap reasons.

    Given her power-set, I could see Monica operating out of New Orleans - dealing with Diabolique, zombies, racist cops, and Hellstrom ( Son of Satan), and in a subsequent story-arc, have her operating in New York, or Paris, or on Titan, in trans-lunar space.

    Since, she can transforms into any energetic particle, she could become tachyons and have adventures on the far side of the galaxy, or in Earth's primordial past, or in one of the popular alternate futures, or a parallel reality.

    The expansiveness of her powers makes for more potential stories not less!

  7. #112
    Master of Narrative kelly_warrior_princess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I.Z.O.R. View Post
    I completely agree
    you completely agree with a statement not about Monica, being about Monica? Goodness people on here perplex me. Monica is not a to powerful character.

  8. #113

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    Wow, you're reading comprehension is dismal or you're just an ass.

  9. #114
    Master of Narrative kelly_warrior_princess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I.Z.O.R. View Post
    Wow, you're reading comprehension is dismal or you're just an ass.
    I'm only an ass when peolpe quote things & then don't actual say anything about the quote. The fact is that Monica is not now, nor has she ever been too powerful. She fits the universe nicely. I personally don't see any reason to include her in anything at the moment, but by the same token i don't see any reason not to include her.

    However i would strongly veto your idea about New Orleans as a base of operation & i would veto the racist cops thing even more strongly: Its just so cliched. Just once i'd like to see Marvel write a character who was incidentaly black without instantly becoming a cliche from either "the street" or from "the deep south." Likewise, i never ever want to see another unplugged story about a black character going back to the old neighbourhood & they relive the real problems that area had. Seriously, i don't think i can remember a single white character who has ever had a similiar story, its so cliched.

    So as an answer to the question of "what to do with Monica" my answer would be, why do we HAVE to do anything? At some point a new pitch will come up & she'll be added to the line up... or not. So it is with fictional characters.

  10. #115

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    Make her team leader again.
    I'm a bumblebee. I'm a bee and I need to get back to the hive.

  11. #116
    Imagination and Bravery Double 0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    However i would strongly veto your idea about New Orleans as a base of operation & i would veto the racist cops thing even more strongly: Its just so cliched. Just once i'd like to see Marvel write a character who was incidentaly black without instantly becoming a cliche from either "the street" or from "the deep south." Likewise, i never ever want to see another unplugged story about a black character going back to the old neighbourhood & they relive the real problems that area had. Seriously, i don't think i can remember a single white character who has ever had a similiar story, its so cliched.
    What in the world does "incidentally" black mean?

    And it's possible to be from "the streets" and/or from "the deep south" without being a cliche. Story or character. It takes research and good writing.

    As for not remembering a white character who's dealt with that... Uh... Spidey and Daredevil have to deal with that fact all the time after going off with the Avengers or FF. Spidey moreso than anyone else. Whenever Wolverine goes back to Canada or Japan, similar situation.

    Also there's a reason why it's a "cliche". It's a reality for many minorities in the US, namely ones in college. I know I've had to deal with it every time I go back. Some just refuse to.

    I think you may want to think about why those aspects are such a "cliche" to you. Because the reasons may be a bit more different and non-objective than you think. And no, don't worry, it's not racism. Not necessarily.
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  12. #117
    Master of Narrative kelly_warrior_princess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    What in the world does "incidentally" black mean?
    Easy. Its where you have a character who is interesting, an has all these facets to there personality; what do you mean i didn't tell you that they were black? Didn't even cross my mind.

    You know, the exact opposite of every single black character marvel currently has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    And it's possible to be from "the streets" and/or from "the deep south" without being a cliche. Story or character. It takes research and good writing.
    sure, but thats like saying can i smack you in the face in a way that isn't cliched. I'm sure i could, but why would i? First Marvel would have to try & given Marvels track record they would likely fail, at whioch point we then need to suffer through another god awful version of what marvel writers think "street" is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    As for not remembering a white character who's dealt with that... Uh... Spidey and Daredevil have to deal with that fact all the time after going off with the Avengers or FF. Spidey moreso than anyone else. Whenever Wolverine goes back to Canada or Japan, similar situation.
    No they don't. There is never that unplugged issue where Peter Parker has to walk through the old neighbourhood & we have to see the distrust from old friends, because he sold out and became successful & at some point someone lays a guilt tuip on old Peter Parker for forgetting where his true place is, where his roots are... An then there is some rubbish about drug dealers & bent racist cops... God i'm so sick of that plot line. Its a hackney narrative tool used by poor writers, to pretend they possess relevency.

    Its the cultural equiviliant of writers writing about yukuza & martial arts when ever theywrite about japan. Its lazy writing, that shows exactly how creatively bankrupt some writers have become.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    Also there's a reason why it's a "cliche". It's a reality for many minorities in the US, namely ones in college. I know I've had to deal with it every time I go back. Some just refuse to.
    Thats nice... An yet completely doesn't matter to the point at hand. The overuse of a cliche, does not make it any less of a cliche. Its like if we made every single white hero a rich socialite playboy... It doesn't matter how many of them actually exist in the real world, it doesn't make it any less of a stupidly overused cliche.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    I think you may want to think about why those aspects are such a "cliche" to you. Because the reasons may be a bit more different and non-objective than you think. And no, don't worry, it's not racism. Not necessarily.
    Not really kid: Its a cliche, because its an overused cliche. Its got nothing to do with real people, its just a cliche & its been overused. An people are tired of the cliches... In the life of any medium, there comes a time where all tired cliches must be taken out behind the barn & shot between the eyes. Those two backgrounds happen to be two that need the bullet in the head treatment.
    Last edited by kelly_warrior_princess; 05-02-2012 at 07:11 AM.

  13. #118
    Veteran Member Hypestyle's Avatar
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    I'd like to see Monica sunbathing on the surface of a sun.. i'll have to get someone to do a commission..
    Last edited by Hypestyle; 05-02-2012 at 07:48 AM.

  14. #119
    Elder Member Vic Vega's Avatar
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    There is a BIG difference between making Monica work as a solo character and making her work as a member of a team.

    She got a base of operations in N.O.

    She has a day job: She is partner in a charter boat company with her dad.

    She has got a little bit of a supporting cast: Her parents and this FBI dude who was a love interest for her in the 90's.

    What she doesn't have is a rogue's gallery. So what would she be exactly doing in a solo book.

    Better to revamp the Annihilators concept to Avengers: Space or something similar and put her, Quasar and whatever version
    of Nova Marvel is using that week as the core of that team.

    That takes care of your setting, job and rogues gallery issues all in one fell swoop.

  15. #120
    Imagination and Bravery Double 0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    Easy. Its where you have a character who is interesting, an has all these facets to there personality; what do you mean i didn't tell you that they were black? Didn't even cross my mind.

    You know, the exact opposite of every single black character marvel currently has.
    Why does it matter that you need to forget that they are black, as if that's a negative? Avoiding stereotypes is one thing, faux-colorblindness is another.


    sure, but thats like saying can i smack you in the face in a way that isn't cliched. I'm sure i could, but why would i? First Marvel would have to try & given Marvels track record they would likely fail, at whioch point we then need to suffer through another god awful version of what marvel writers think "street" is.
    Ok, this I agree with.


    No they don't. There is never that unplugged issue where Peter Parker has to walk through the old neighbourhood & we have to see the distrust from old friends, because he sold out and became successful & at some point someone lays a guilt tuip on old Peter Parker for forgetting where his true place is, where his roots are... An then there is some rubbish about drug dealers & bent racist cops... God i'm so sick of that plot line. Its a hackney narrative tool used by poor writers, to pretend they possess relevancy.
    Are we reading the same Spider-Man? Because those are all plot lines I've seen in Spidey, except the racist cops. He may not "sell out", but Peter has changed over the years, for better or worse, and that has been a story point every now and then. Maybe it's not set up in a way that annoys you, but it's there.

    It is a very well-treaded plot line. However, I think that it's the execution that is the failing more so than the concept itself. I mean, it could be the basis of a character like Falcon. In fact, it is, since he's a social worker.

    Its the cultural equiviliant of writers writing about yukuza & martial arts when ever theywrite about japan. Its lazy writing, that shows exactly how creatively bankrupt some writers have become.
    I honestly don't think it is the same. What you brought up is the result of a lack of knowledge, ignorance of the culture. Because not all Japanese people are martial artists or have Yakuza ties. The other one is a overly used plotline because it is prevalent within the culture.

    I mean, if you want to see a rich or middle classed minority character that's not from the city, that's fine. But they aren't anymore special than the ones in the city. And don't act like they are somehow more interesting, or more realistic, or "less black".

    Thats nice... An yet completely doesn't matter to the point at hand. The overuse of a cliche, does not make it any less of a cliche. Its like if we made every single white hero a rich socialite playboy... It doesn't matter how many of them actually exist in the real world, it doesn't make it any less of a stupidly overused cliche.
    True. I do think it is overused. But that doesn't mean it needs to be killed off, or that origins need to be changed. It just that more diverse backgrounds for characters are needed.

    Now when it comes to whether or not societal stuff are relevant in the discussion, well... I'll leave that one off, because that's just entirely two schools of thought.

    Not really kid: Its a cliche, because its an overused cliche. Its got nothing to do with real people, its just a cliche & its been overused. An people are tired of the cliches... In the life of any medium, there comes a time where all tired cliches must be taken out behind the barn & shot between the eyes. Those two backgrounds happen to be two that need the bullet in the head treatment.
    I just don't like the idea of a lifestyle being considered a cliche. Sure, there are plotlines that are cliched,
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