Six is not enough?

[TomStillwell]

I'm completely revolted by this story.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_162571.html

The rundown:

A woman and her six kids ages 2-7, living at home with her parents after declaring bankruptcy, somehow was able to get IVF treatment which produced octuplets.

The father is never mentioned so we don't know if he's in the picture or not. It is mentioned that currently the woman, her kids, and her parents all live together in a 3 bedroom apartment. So now they'll be about seventeen people, fourteen of them kids below the age of seven, all living in a 3 bedroom apartment.

The grandfather is a contractor and headed to Iraq for some time, pressumably to pay for his daughter's litter.

My wife and I did IVF because we couldn't conceive on our own. We went through an interview process with both our insurance company since, they were footing the bill, and the fertility clinic in order to ensure that everything was a good match.

IVF is the ultimate in planned parenthood. It's not something you enter into without a lot of thought and planning.

There are a lot of questions bothering me about this situation.

Who paid for the treatment? I have a really hard time picturing an insurance company covering IVF for someone who already has six kids through natural means.

What kind of interview process did this woman have to go through at the clinic? Weren't any red flags raised by the fact that she has kids already that she can't afford to care for?
I have a huge problem with eight fertilized embryos being implanted knowing that a good chance of multiple births. It just seems grossly irresponsible.

Ethically this matter is strife with debate. I can see this becoming a much talked about issue.

[4thHorseman]

I honestly believe she thought she could get a tv show and make a good deal of money like that other family did.

However, I don't think she realizes her situation is completely different.

[the4thpip]

You have to understand... None of the first six kids liked her cooking. She did not like them odds.

[escapegoat]

Wow... I'm also baffled as to how she was allowed to get IVF treatment.

[spark627]

This story is crazy.

I don't understand how she paid for this or plans to support these children... but then again it sounds like her parents support her. An eye needs to be kept on this woman, she doesn't sound all there.

[Mr.EZ]

The 6 kids were all under the age of 8, the youngest being 2. What doctor in their right mind would agree to give her fertility drugs?

Something stinks here, and it's not half a dozen dirty diapers.

Maybe they're part of that religious movement that believes in having huge litters of kids.

EDIT: And where the hell is the father? The story came to light a few days ago, and there's still no mention of him, or them.

[sunshinegirl]

Wow. I heard about the octuplets. (everyone keeps telling me. "aren't you glad you're only having two!" gah!)

I didn't know she already had 6 naturally concieved children. I mean, it's not my business to question her parenting or her desire to have more children, BUT it is baffling as to how she was able to get IVF. I'm not very familiar with how that process works or any of the inside details. I would imagine that it's a rather legnthy process to get approved. Is the woman able to select the number of embryos to be implanted? and aren't there limits to that number? Eight seems kinda greedy to me! Or is it more like luck of the draw, so to speak? Like, "there's a possibility of a multiple pregnancy if you take this fertility drug." type situation.

...on another note, holy crap! Going through a twin pregnancy and all its complications that go along with it, I can't understand why anyone would willingly and purposefully have eight!

[PatrickG]

Anyone else see Idiocracy?

IMHO, the people who feel the greatest urge to reproduce are often precisely the people who shouldn't.

Personally, I think benefits and support for individuals or couples who struggle to raise 1-2 kids should be raised. Adoption needs more support as well. But having more than two biological children, while not something you can or should ban as a matter of civil rights, should receive no extra funding or support in the form of tax breaks, fertility drugs or benefits.

Everyone should have the right to choose to have a bajillion kids but society shouldn't be responsible in any way if you choose to have more kids than there are parents unless you're actively taking care of the unwanted children already out there.

[Corrina]

Wow... I'm also baffled as to how she was allowed to get IVF treatment.

Because when people have money to pay for medical treatment, doctors aren't allowed to be moral judges.

*(I'm not even sure they should be. I sure don't want doctors judging my decision to say, use birth control, or any number of other things....)

It sounds like this woman made a very bad decision. And people can have opinions on that. But I think it's wrong to say people shouldn't be allowed to do similar things--smacks a little too much of Big Brother for me.

[escapegoat]

Because when people have money to pay for medical treatment, doctors aren't allowed to be moral judges.

*(I'm not even sure they should be. I sure don't want doctors judging my decision to say, use birth control, or any number of other things....)

It sounds like this woman made a very bad decision. And people can have opinions on that. But I think it's wrong to say people shouldn't be allowed to do similar things--smacks a little too much of Big Brother for me.

But how could she afford it, if she declared bankruptcy over a year and half ago?

Plus, as Tom said, there are screening processes when applying IVF treatment. Though it appears that she did some lying to the doctors according to the updates to the report.

[Lester C.]

Idiocy aside you can't start telling women how many kids they can or can't have. In either extreme of saying people MUST reproduce or MUST not reproduce we become a draconian police state. I know this sounds trite but you have both Japan and China on opposite ends of the spectrum flummoxed about how they are going to proceed to regulate their country's birthrate.

[Dark Galaxy]

I know this is stretching a bit, but there could have been extenuating circumstances. I have heard of people, who have had a spouse die or become incapacitated, and then use IVF to have that person's child. I don't know about the six other kids. But, they very well could have been from a different father than the octuplets.

There just has to be something weird like that, it really doesn't make any other logical sense. Then again, a lot of people aren't logical.

I hope the best for all of those kids.

[escapegoat]

It's not so much the question of allowing a woman to have such-and-such amount of children. It's about the responsibility. Especially with no actual father involved. It's coming across as a publicity stunt on the woman's behalf, and at the some time it's a slap in the face of the medical community. The Youtube video indicates that IVF procedures do not usually use more than 2 embryos at a time, so there's obviously something suspicious going on here.

[escapegoat]

I know this is stretching a bit, but there could have been extenuating circumstances. I have heard of people, who have had a spouse die or become incapacitated, and then use IVF to have that person's child. I don't know about the six other kids. But, they very well could have been from a different father than the octuplets.

There just has to be something weird like that, it really doesn't make any other logical sense. Then again, a lot of people aren't logical.

I hope the best for all of those kids.

The report indicates the same sperm donor was used for every children. So this isn't likelly the situation. Though that's not confirmed...

[Solaris]

Considering that this IFV treatment *isn't* available to everyone, that people have to jump through hoops and go through a screening process (and pay a lot of money or have really good insurance) to get it, I see nothing wrong with saying that, since she had 6 children already, she shouldn't have been passed through the screening process. The process is *meant* for people who are having trouble conceiving a child, period. Obviously from her past successes, she had no problem conceiving a child.

It's like saying, "Oh, I don't agree with the screening process prospective transsexuals must go through, before getting gender-change surgery---everyone ought to have the right to get it, if they want, and the government or medical establishment doing a screening process smacks of 'Big Brother.'"

If she wished to have more children than her six, it's pretty clear she had the ability to do so by normal means, and/or to have yet *more* children by artificial insemination (which is apparently how she got her other six kids).

Medical services like IFV and transgender surgery are very serious procedures. The screening process are in place *because* of that, *because* they cost a lot of money for the recipients, *because* it involves a lot of commitment on the part of the patients, and they want to make sure the patients really are prepared to deal with the end result. I don't see it as Big Brother to have these screening processes, anymore than to have screening processes for adoption.

The fact that she *lied* to her doctors, that she's gotten herself pregnant *six* times already by a donor, that she's dependent on her parents, that they've declared bankruptcy already... to me, it stinks of immaturity at best, and a blatant bid for fame and noteriety and the "gifts and attention" that parents of extreme multiple births are given from businesses and individuals. How much do you wanna bet she's spent *hours* watching that TLC show that followed that one family with six or seven at one birth? (The only reason I know about it is because Rin liked watching it when she was down here... I never enjoyed the umpteen eruptions of kid whining and screeching that occurred within EVERY episode. Argh. Like nails on a chalkboard for me.)

Anyway, I think the State DFACs needs to take a very close look at this woman and her family.

And I'll defend that statement by saying they have no problem removing a child from a drug addict, an abusive or neglectful parent, or anyone who proves to be an unfit parent in other ways... I have to wonder just how fit she is, if she's doing things like this. And... where does it stop? Does the state have an obligation to allow her to continue getting pregnant in this fashion, if they decide she *can't* care for the children she already has and must remove them from the home? I know that's getting into very murky waters... but I think it's still worth asking.

Yeah, I'm pissed. There's so many people out there who want to conceive and can't---and this woman lies to do this *after* she's already had six children... and can't support the ones she has already.