So 'Dark Mary Marvel' is....

[Evan Waters]

No, it's not, because 1) anyone who cares about the point, is already aware of it, and 2) now there's one less respectable teenage superheroine in the DCU.

Because said respectability will be impossible to restore, of course.

Not that I'm convinced of #1. Sometimes people needed to be slapped on the face with something like this before they say it. There are a lot of dirty old men in comics and fandom who need to see "hmm, this is kind of disturbing."

Like I said before, commenting on something, when you could be acting on it is a waste. It's passive.

So is all satire in literature, film, television, etc. a waste?

I don't find it particularly praiseworthy. It's not like he's some indie comics creator who is dissatisfied with the state of the industry and trying to make a point from the outside with spoof or allegorical characters.

No, this will be read by more people and be more commented on.

[scout1279]

So is all satire in literature, film, television, etc. a waste?

That is absolutely not what I meant or said. My point is that Grant Morrison is someone who actually is in a position to act, and he is not.

[Evan Waters]

That is absolutely not what I meant or said. My point is that Grant Morrison is someone who actually is in a position to act, and he is not.

I think he is. He's showing the inevitable end result of treating your female superheroes as sex objects first and foremost, and how it's not pretty.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I'd think that Final Crisis actually containing the true ending to Batman RIP was more worthy of scorn than another hackneyed plot point in a comic book crossover.

That's not true either, IMO.

From the way I saw it, RIP was the last public appearance of Batman. Almost like a tribute of some sort, as he took on a group that thought they could completely destroy him in a way death could not, and ultimately beat them with his heralded prep-time.

He may have been around a little bit in Final Crisis (getting taken out), but what happened to him in Final Crisis is only known by some of the Justice Leaguers, and pretty much no one else (plus, most of them are out of the picture anyway).


Final Crisis may show his final fate, but RIP served it's purpose as the last public fight from Batman in Gotham.

[Calvin Government]

The question is, how much has Grant slipped from comment on this phenomenon and become simply a participant in the same? In other words, is he critisizing the DeSaads of the industry? Or has he, in part, become DeSaad? Has he gone from commentary to self-gratification? And if so, how much, and why, and what merit meaning would the self-gratification now have to general readerships?

To a degree, yes, there are strong elements of self-gratification. The people who liked the hypersexualization of Mary Marvel aren't going to like it because he's using the character to criticize the corruption of the innocence idea that a lot of people probably found appealing. The people who didn't like Mary's treatment in Countdown aren't going to like it because she's even more messed up now, and because they'd rather we all just ignored Countdown and nothing at all happened with Mary in the first place. So, here, he's pretty much just writing for himself and the few apologists he has who will try desperately to concoct bizarre arguments about how Morrison is criticizing the fetishization of evil in comics.

In Final Crisis thus far, evil isn't gorgeous, it isn't seductive, and it isn't 'cool' - evil is dark and ugly and, unfortunately, really, really easy. It isn't Black Mary, the panty-shot latex-clad super-naughty model - it's a voyeuristic old creep ruining someone else for a cheap, consequence-free thrill. It isn't Black Adam killing a bunch of people off panel and then grieving for his wife - it's Turpin, beating someone nearly to death with a toilet seat on panel and realizing that it feels good.

So, yeah, when you're criticizing both creators and fans, I think there's a huge amount of ego and self-gratification involved in the process. I'm willing to forgive it because I think it has the potential to bring Mary out the other side and because I've found Final Crisis to be mostly very enjoyable, but if you'd rather Countdown Mary be forgotten completely, or if you just aren't liking his portrayal, that's understandable.

[LtMarvel]

I'm still thinking the punk-look Mary was an injoke nod to the aborted Roy Thomas Shazam era. Thomas published what Mary would have looked like in his Alter Ego magazine...it was a weird punk rock Mary!

[Flamebird]

I honestly don't see anything special about Supergirl's portrayal in Final Crisis #5. Yeah, she's being set up to be the 'good girl' to oppose Mary's 'bad girl', but we're not looking at any real depth of characterization going on. She's a plot device.

To be fair there seems to be no indepth characterization for anyone. Everything is just a plot point to Grant.

Is not the point more important than the respectability of any one character?

Not really, no. This is supposed to be about fighting against the darkness, not reveling in it.
Plus it would be nice if the story were more entertaining and less "dancing bear" trickery.

I think he is. He's showing the inevitable end result of treating your female superheroes as sex objects first and foremost, and how it's not pretty.

The biggest problem here is that "lesser" writers will see what Grant did and go "wow, this is how Mary should be". It's all down hill from that point.

[Tobias March]

The biggest problem here is that "lesser" writers will see what Grant did and go "wow, this is how Mary should be". It's all down hill from that point.

Crap it's the 80's all over again.

Here's what's admirable about FC. Evil wins - and there's nothing voyeuristic or pleasing about it.

[Adam C]

To a degree, yes, there are strong elements of self-gratification. The people who liked the hypersexualization of Mary Marvel aren't going to like it because he's using the character to criticize the corruption of the innocence idea that a lot of people probably found appealing. The people who didn't like Mary's treatment in Countdown aren't going to like it because she's even more messed up now, and because they'd rather we all just ignored Countdown and nothing at all happened with Mary in the first place. So, here, he's pretty much just writing for himself and the few apologists he has who will try desperately to concoct bizarre arguments about how Morrison is criticizing the fetishization of evil in comics.

I largely understand your point. And after a year of Countdown I readily understood why most people were put off by evil Mary when she first appeared in FC #3, even if I did not have the visceral distaste necessary to put me off. (Mostly because I only experienced Countdown through message board summaries and have a certain emotional distance from my childhood superhero comics.)

However, "bizarre arguments" that were desperately concocted by a few apologists? How is taking his treatment of evil Mary in FC as a satire not a reasonable reading of the work?

[Red Jack]

I think Mary is dead. Whatever is inside her killed her just as Granny killed Kraken.

[Calvin Government]

However, "bizarre arguments" that were desperately concocted by a few apologists? How is taking his treatment of evil Mary in FC as a satire not a reasonable reading of the work?

That was actually in reference to me. I have no idea what was actually going on through Morrison's head as he wrote all this, and my post was just guesswork and poppycock, and was pointing this out by mildly insulting myself preemptively. It's an attitude I adapted for comic boards when I found that defending Morrison's work or criticizing that of Johns would often get me insulted or threatened. Rather than start a seventeen page long argument that I would feel embarrassingly compelled to finish, I figure it's easier just to have a laugh, point out that this is just my opinion - and is very likely a minority one - and quietly move on. Apologies for the confusion.

[Constantine Drakon]

2) now there's one less respectable teenage superheroine in the DCU.

"One less" implies that there are others.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

"One less" implies that there are others.

I'd say Stargirl's a pretty old-fashioned 'good girl' type.

[Constantine Drakon]

I'd say Stargirl's a pretty old-fashioned 'good girl' type.

Hm. I suppose.

For now.

...I said "For now"? Hello? Where's my ominous thunder?

[LtMarvel]

Eh. Mary will regain just enough control to say the magic word just in time to change before her Marvel self dies, expelling DeSaad.