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  1. #226
    Senior Member babybro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Thomer View Post
    From the same link (Emphasis mine):


    The Agents getting their own title rests on there being interest after they are introduced. So the Milestone characters likely had the very same opportunity, there just doesn't appear to have been enough interest to warrant their own series.

    So, in order to show there is sufficient interest, fans need to support Static in TEEN TITANS and the Milestone TPB collections.
    But it was never determine the interest behind these characters. They were in JLA, which was selling quite well at that time. Hardware was with blue beetle, and yet there wasn't a drop in sales. So whose to say there isn't enough interest. And for my personal opinion, I definitely would say a static ongoing would sell a bit better than say....the shield.
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  2. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonO View Post
    Please note that the plans were announced for the Red Circle characters to spinoff in their own titles before
    the first issue of the Straczynski limited series had already even debuted, so how did DC determine there was "enough interest" in the those characters to justify ongoing series?
    JMS. DC bet that JMS' name would carry that line( I think they bet wrong). Every time you hear someone from DC talking about Red Circle they make sure to mention JMS. You would think he is the one writing the ongoing titles(which is pity because the Shield has an excellent writer).

  3. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by babybro View Post
    But it was never determine the interest behind these characters. They were in JLA, which was selling quite well at that time. Hardware was with blue beetle, and yet there wasn't a drop in sales. So whose to say there isn't enough interest. And for my personal opinion, I definitely would say a static ongoing would sell a bit better than say....the shield.
    I agree with your overall point but JLA was selling very badly compared even a few months before. It was in the upper 70Ks but JLA sold very very well before that.

    I think "introducing" the characters in JLA hurt them as much as anything. Sure JLA was selling 70K+ but the book was a mess at the time and the cast was too big to properly introduce us to 10 new characters. And the recent forced tie-ins were still fresh in the minds of readers and this seemed like more of that. I think a separate mini or a series of one-shots would have been the way to go. They would have sold less than JLA but it would have served the characters much better.

  4. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonO View Post
    How do you determine there hasn't been enough interest? What exactly is that based on?

    Please note that the plans were announced for the Red Circle characters to spinoff in their own titles before
    the first issue of the Straczynski limited series had already even debuted, so how did DC determine there was "enough interest" in the those characters to justify ongoing series?
    As was said, we don't know for sure. But looking at the published sales for issues containing Milestone characters the only one that saw an increase in sales was TEEN TITANS around when Static joined, the others all continued downward trends. However, Static joining TT was also around the same time as a crossover and the sales numbers have already gone back down. The STATIC SHOCK trade also only had reported pre-orders of 1300ish copies. So given that, it doesn't appear to be much interest in the characters alone to justify ongoing books of their own.

    Yes, the Red Circle ongoings were announced before the characters debuted in the DCU. What info DC used to determine this, I don't know. The fact that the RC debuts went from B&B to one-shots could suggest that response to the license was significantly positive. Perhaps, the same level of response to the Milestone characters did not exist. Or any number of licensing terms may have been the reason.
    Last edited by BrianT; 09-06-2009 at 05:31 PM. Reason: Fixed sales numbers for Static Shock trade from 1900 to 1300
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  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Thomer View Post
    As was said, we don't know for sure. But looking at the published sales for issues containing Milestone characters the only one that saw an increase in sales was TEEN TITANS around when Static joined, the others all continued downward trends. However, Static joining TT was also around the same time as a crossover and the sales numbers have already gone back down. The STATIC SHOCK trade also only had reported pre-orders of 1900ish copies. So given that, it doesn't appear to be much interest in the characters alone to justify ongoing books of their own.

    Yes, the Red Circle ongoings were announced before the characters debuted in the DCU. What info DC used to determine this, I don't know. The fact that the RC debuts went from B&B to one-shots could suggest that response to the license was significantly positive. Perhaps, the same level of response to the Milestone characters did not exist. Or any number of licensing terms may have been the reason.
    The reason why the Red Circle debuts were changed from Brave and the Bold to one-shots was because Straczynski felt that the one-shots were a more conducive format for the stories he wanted to tell. He himself has said that in interviews (including at least one at Newsarama). It had nothing to do with fan interest.

    I can't buy the theory that DC decided that the Red Circle characters deserved ongoing series due to Straczynski's interest to them because he has no involvement in the ongoing series. They're all written by someone else. Wouldn't it have made more sense to see how the one-shots sold, THEN determine if ongoing series were warranted?
    Last edited by DamonO; 09-06-2009 at 11:22 AM.

  6. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonO View Post
    The reason why the Red Circle debuts were changed from Brave and the Bold to one-shots was because Straczynski felt that the one-shots were a more conducive format for the stories he wanted to tell. He himself has said that in interviews (including at least one at Newsarama). It had nothing to do with fan interest.

    I can't buy the theory that DC decided that the Red Circle characters deserved ongoing series due to Straczynski's interest to them because he has no involvement in the ongoing series. They're all written by someone else. Wouldn't it have made more sense to see how the one-shots sold, THEN determine if ongoing series were warranted?
    I didn't read those interviews, so I didn't know that, but I do believe DC would change it on JMS's preference. This is the guy that had a level of creative control on the Spider-Man book he wrote. And it makes sense to have the follow ups be as close to JMS's participation as possible. Waiting an additional 6-8 months would kill the momentum. And if they're going to have one-shots it just makes sense to go ahead with ongoings rather than wait to gauge interest because they've already taken the time to develop logos, trademarks, assign editors, etc. Expenses they don't have to incur if they were simply appearing in an existing title.

    That said, it doesn't change the fact that there wasn't a positive effect on sales in books that had Milestone characters in them and that's what's relevant here.
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  7. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Thomer View Post
    As was said, we don't know for sure. But looking at the published sales for issues containing Milestone characters the only one that saw an increase in sales was TEEN TITANS around when Static joined, the others all continued downward trends. However, Static joining TT was also around the same time as a crossover and the sales numbers have already gone back down. The STATIC SHOCK trade also only had reported pre-orders of 1900ish copies. So given that, it doesn't appear to be much interest in the characters alone to justify ongoing books of their own.
    Do keep in mind that the decision to drop the planned Milestone ongoings was made before Static's first appearance in Teen Titans, and before I was fired from JLA. The decision wasn't made on the basis of *any* sales data, except perhaps for the DC line as a whole. Nor do they appear to be retaliatory, linked to my dismissal. I think Static is as good a bet as Magog, the Shield, or Doc Savage. DC clearly doesn't agree, as they haven't approved a Milestone ongoing since 1995, or a mini since 2000, or a tie-in title to a Milestone TV series ever. I'm still puzzled as to why they bothered negotiating for those rights.

  8. #233
    Elder Member Sean Walsh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamonO View Post
    How do you determine there hasn't been enough interest? What exactly is that based on?
    Well, sales reports on JLA, for starters. Sales were tumbling for much of McDuffie's run on the book. Here's sales for the run of books populated by the Milestone characters:

    http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/b...les-june-2009/

    10/2008: Justice League #26 77,353 (- 4.2%)
    11/2008:
    12/2008: Justice League #27 75,803 (- 2.0%)
    12/2008: Justice League #28 72,728 (- 4.1%)
    01/2009: Justice League #29 72,116 (- 0.8%)
    02/2009: Justice League #30 69,710 (- 3.3%)
    03/2009: Justice League #31 68,759 (- 1.4%)
    04/2009: Justice League #32 66,021 (- 4.0%)
    05/2009: Justice League #33 63,867 (- 3.3%)
    And I have to believe that McDuffie's negative comments about writing JLA & firing are a contributing factor to why, outside Static in the Teen Titans, there's very little happening on the Milestone front.

  9. #234
    Elder Member Free-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Walsh View Post
    Well, sales reports on JLA, for starters. Sales were tumbling for much of McDuffie's run on the book. Here's sales for the run of books populated by the Milestone characters:



    And I have to believe that McDuffie's negative comments about writing JLA & firing are a contributing factor to why, outside Static in the Teen Titans, there's very little happening on the Milestone front.
    But you have to remember that the Milestone arc was also the same storyline where the Trinity and many other chracters were forced out of the book, and we were left with the much criticized "overly-black" roster.

  10. #235
    Senior Member G. Boney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Walsh View Post
    Well, sales reports on JLA, for starters. Sales were tumbling for much of McDuffie's run on the book. Here's sales for the run of books populated by the Milestone characters:



    And I have to believe that McDuffie's negative comments about writing JLA & firing are a contributing factor to why, outside Static in the Teen Titans, there's very little happening on the Milestone front.
    Heh heh. Reading this post was funny considering what was posted one minute earlier...

  11. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne McDuffie View Post
    Do keep in mind that the decision to drop the planned Milestone ongoings was made before Static's first appearance in Teen Titans, and before I was fired from JLA. The decision wasn't made on the basis of *any* sales data, except perhaps for the DC line as a whole. Nor do they appear to be retaliatory, linked to my dismissal. I think Static is as good a bet as Magog, the Shield, or Doc Savage. DC clearly doesn't agree, as they haven't approved a Milestone ongoing since 1995, or a mini since 2000, or a tie-in title to a Milestone TV series ever. I'm still puzzled as to why they bothered negotiating for those rights.
    Thanks for the additional information, as always. So, DC did initially have preliminary plans for Milestone ongoings prior to their debuts, just as they did/do for the Red Circle characters and the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. If the basis for the decision to not go ahead with the ongoings wasn't based on sales data from TERROR TITANS, JLA or the STATIC SHOCK trade or your dismissal from JLA, on what basis was it made on?

    Given Didio's comments, does this mean the "wrap up" story for the original Milestone run is no longer in the works?
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  12. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Thomer View Post
    Thanks for the additional information, as always. So, DC did initially have preliminary plans for Milestone ongoings prior to their debuts, just as they did/do for the Red Circle characters and the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. If the basis for the decision to not go ahead with the ongoings wasn't based on sales data from TERROR TITANS, JLA or the STATIC SHOCK trade or your dismissal from JLA, on what basis was it made on?

    Given Didio's comments, does this mean the "wrap up" story for the original Milestone run is no longer in the works?
    I'm not privy to how or why DC made their decision, they just told me the books were no go. The wrap-up Milestone mini (which also shows the last moments of the Dakotaverse, and the instants before it is merged with the DCU) is still in progress. I saw some new pencils last week.

  13. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Walsh View Post
    Well, sales reports on JLA, for starters. Sales were tumbling for much of McDuffie's run on the book. .
    True, sales were tumbling for this *entire* run of JLA. It lost nearly a hundred thousand readers the first year, and another hundred thousand readers over my two years on the book. No one was happy about this, but considering that the first 12 issues had variant covers and one artist, and the second year had no variant covers, and twenty or so different artists, it could have been worse, we didn't drop out of the top ten until after it was announced that I was leaving the book. Hang in there, though. I expect that sales will stabilize with the arrival of the new artist and writer team, and go up dramatically as the storylines become more central to the DCU.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Thomer View Post
    Thanks for the additional information, as always. So, DC did initially have preliminary plans for Milestone ongoings prior to their debuts, just as they did/do for the Red Circle characters and the T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents. If the basis for the decision to not go ahead with the ongoings wasn't based on sales data from TERROR TITANS, JLA or the STATIC SHOCK trade or your dismissal from JLA, on what basis was it made on?

    Given Didio's comments, does this mean the "wrap up" story for the original Milestone run is no longer in the works?
    I wonder how much "fan interest" there was in giving MAGOG his own ongoing series. Or how much there was in reviving the VIGILANTE title, just canceled after twelve issues.

  15. #240
    Senior Member Werehunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwayne McDuffie View Post
    I'm not privy to how or why DC made their decision, they just told me the books were no go. The wrap-up Milestone mini (which also shows the last moments of the Dakotaverse, and the instants before it is merged with the DCU) is still in progress. I saw some new pencils last week.
    Do who know who was slated or considered to work on the possible Milestone on-going books or minis?

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