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  1. #5476
    Curioser and curioser March Hare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M.Hammerman View Post
    I was thinking about it this afternoon, and I was feeling pretty dissatisfied with my response to the Kurt/Peter friendship thing. I've written them together a fair amount in fic, so I should be able to come up with some better insights. Anyway, I guess my thing about liking or not liking Pete has to do with the fact that his deep convictions and sense of conscience are too often depicted as small-mindedness. I don't mind him being a bit naive, inasmuch as naivety is a function of a sympathetic kind of innocence, but I don't like it when his naivety gets equated with dumbness.

    With him and Kurt... The aspects I like have to do with how Peter's a guy who's defined by raw, physical power who seems to really respect Kurt, a guy who's defined more by brains (or at least cunning) than brawn. I think Peter's respect for that difference says a lot about his character; it also hints at the humility I think Peter ultimately has (despite his sometimes posturing).

    Anyway, I liked the depiction of their friendship in this scene from Excal #92, despite it following one of those sexist jealousy rampages I'm not fond of. But maybe it shows Peter's ability to learn from his mistakes...? It's also sort of nice (or interesting?) to see Kurt being really mad at someone (in my selective-reading mind, I imagine only defense of Kitty could provoke him to such acts, lol).



    My trouble with this thread is that I've been missing a lot of issues during 90s, like that one above, and I often speak of characters as if they're hung on Claremont time. Sorry! Piotr used to be then just an honest man, not a dumb. I agree with your appreciation.

    Quote Originally Posted by M.Hammerman View Post
    And seriously, why is it that Wolverine can only be bi in a comic where Nightcrawler is a child? Are they that afraid of slash readings?
    Perhaps they are planning some pederast stuff >:) .

    Quote Originally Posted by M.Hammerman View Post
    If I could just stop becoming emotionally invested in fictional characters over whom I have no control...
    If we only could...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    Don't throw invisible internet objects at me, please.
    Kurt Wagner, aside from being known as caring, compassionate and sometimes funny and flirtatious -- and Darkholme is none of these things -- was also stubbornly determined, had a strength of will to put most other characters to shame, was often self-righteous seeming and had enough...ahem...confidence in his opinions to be almost unswayable in them. I mean, realistically, how often do you think his friends would get to the point of rolling their eyes and saying "Fine, Kurt we GET it, enough already!" when he got on a tangent about something like violence or Xavier's dream or faith? He was right, he knew it, and he let others know in such a way to make him the "voice of wisdom". It was not considered a short-coming because most readers agreed with him. He was a noble hero who cared enough to nag his friends into behaving. (The only thing I can really recall him being consistently vacuous about was romantic entanglements.) [...] Anyhow, just opinions.
    Don't worry, we love Kurt with all his faults ;) .

  2. #5477
    Curioser and curioser March Hare's Avatar
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    Getting back from the demonstration of 14N European General Strike against savage socioeconomics budget cuts... I wish I could count on Kurt in these situations --it would be so nice he'd be walking down the streets by our side yelling "A las barricadas, Kameraden!".

    In early superhero comic-books they fight only against common criminals; in 80s and 90s they begin to worry about some civilian rights (good thing!); but maybe now it's time to walk one step beyond to defende ESCR (economic, social and cultural rights). And I know I'm speaking of a delicate subjet again...

    As far as I'm concerned, Kurt himself never came down on any side. I remember he said a couple of times in Excalibur he "hates politicians" (when they faced a nuclear power case and when they were at Cloud 9). I can't say I blame him , but politicians is not the same as politics. I'm sure he's quite responsible to have his own opinion about that.
    Last edited by March Hare; 11-15-2012 at 06:12 AM.

  3. #5478
    Member M.Hammerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    Darkholme is just as determined to do his thing, is driven by force of will, is self-righteous in his justification and egocentric about his opinions, and utterly unable to be moved from his chosen course of action, it's just from the perspective of a very dark place, and a man raised by Mystique.

    Like Marg, I'm not seeing any commonality in KidKurt. We just have a little blue guy with a tail who can teleport -- if you get down to it, the same similarities with the bamfs. Maybe there is common ground with Evo Kurt from cartoons, maybe not.

    Anyhow, just opinions.
    I agree with you about the Darkholme thing. Even though in a lot of ways he's the opposite of 616 Kurt, I can see how that distortion can be related to an effort to explore the connection to Mystique, and can be used to comment on certain of 616 Kurt's personality traits (like his tendency towards self-righteousness, as you mentioned). Even with Evo Kurt and Kurt Waggoner, I'm not seeing much of a character-based connection. Stuff like the tech-geekery is so completely out of left field.

    I guess I had such a strong reaction against Xtreme #6 because it reminded me so much of a lot of the problems many of us had with that Origins retcon several years back. I mean, yeah, Kurt is a character who suffers, we all get that. But his hero story isn't about the fact of that suffering so much as the way he reacts to it, the way he tries to negotiate a way out of victimhood. Rather than have Kurt Waggoner's story be that of a stereotypical passive, picked-upon nerd, I feel like it would have been far more interesting, and a far far better Nightcrawler story, to have him be sort of a popular class clown and star athlete, yet always vaguely troubled by the terms of his success--always a bit worried that people are laughing at him rather than with him, liking him for what he can do, rather than who he is. Then the story would be about the difficulties of negotiating prejudice, rather than just the fact that prejudice exists.

    Anyway, rant over, I swear.

  4. #5479
    Member M.Hammerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March Hare View Post
    My trouble with this thread is that I've been missing a lot of issues during 90s, like that one above, and I often speak of characters as if they're hung on Claremont time. Sorry! Piotr used to be then just an honest man, not a dumb. I agree with your appreciation.
    I wouldn't worry about that--I prefer Claremont Piotr, as well, and am not nuts about many things that have happened to him since then (like a lot of people, he's experienced a fair amount of character regression at times). On the bright side, he became a lot more like his old self in later issues of Excalibur. I know D.Rogue posted some good stuff with Pete and Kurt from Raab's Excal run a while back. He was also supposedly experiencing some residual brain damage in the scene I posted, so, you know, there's that.

    With the 14N stuff... yeah, I've been seeing that on the news. My heart goes out to you :(

  5. #5480
    Curioser and curioser March Hare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M.Hammerman View Post
    I agree with you about the Darkholme thing. Even though in a lot of ways he's the opposite of 616 Kurt, I can see how that distortion can be related to an effort to explore the connection to Mystique, and can be used to comment on certain of 616 Kurt's personality traits (like his tendency towards self-righteousness, as you mentioned). Even with Evo Kurt and Kurt Waggoner, I'm not seeing much of a character-based connection. Stuff like the tech-geekery is so completely out of left field.

    I guess I had such a strong reaction against Xtreme #6 because it reminded me so much of a lot of the problems many of us had with that Origins retcon several years back. I mean, yeah, Kurt is a character who suffers, we all get that. But his hero story isn't about the fact of that suffering so much as the way he reacts to it, the way he tries to negotiate a way out of victimhood. Rather than have Kurt Waggoner's story be that of a stereotypical passive, picked-upon nerd, I feel like it would have been far more interesting, and a far far better Nightcrawler story, to have him be sort of a popular class clown and star athlete, yet always vaguely troubled by the terms of his success--always a bit worried that people are laughing at him rather than with him, liking him for what he can do, rather than who he is. Then the story would be about the difficulties of negotiating prejudice, rather than just the fact that prejudice exists.
    Ey! There you have a good story.

    As for twisted versions of Kurt, he was able to see himself in his Nazi counterpart of Earth-597, wasn't he?

  6. #5481
    Twyin "I Win" Champagne's Avatar
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    Did you guys see this Wolverine & the X-Men #25 "Things to Come" variant cover yet?

    Azazel. "Azazel Bamfs." Mystique. Is Kurt's return upon us soon?

    .tumblr
    by the light, by the truth, by sangreal and sword and pendragon's fire
    by defender's might and dragon circle's destiny behold thy bane!

    ✘ stephen strange

  7. #5482
    BAMF Brigade Sundowhn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champagne View Post
    Did you guys see this Wolverine & the X-Men #25 "Things to Come" variant cover yet?

    Azazel. "Azazel Bamfs." Mystique. Is Kurt's return upon us soon?
    We can certainly hope. :)

  8. #5483
    Elder Member Froggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    In the 32 continuous years that I've been a Nightcrawler fan, I have never, ever utterly loathed a version of the character -- until now. Pak has accomplished what I thought was impossible. He's put some clichéd, whingy, pathetic side-kick into that body and tries to pass it off as a kid version of Kurt. I swear, if that thing ends up in 616....

    I'm really not a Dazzler fan, so that's really another big strike for me. I like the idea of a gay Wolverine, but his characterization otherwise is pretty dull.

    Yeah, getting emotionally invested in Marvel characters, these days, is a bad idea it seems--- just leads to frustration and disappointment. Unless, of course, you can't get enough of editorial favourites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    We can certainly hope. :)
    this
    this this this

    and i keep giggling at old man wolverine with the inhaler and the shirt jokes (___was right) are killing me!
    they label me a villain cause of how I express my feelings

  9. #5484
    Twyin "I Win" Champagne's Avatar
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    I really hope that when Nightcrawler returns, he isn't going to be a regular in Wolverine & the X-Men.
    Though, the "bamfs", Kitty Pryde, Rachel, and Wolverine all say otherwise. Since he has the perfect chemistry with those characters.
    It's just my opinion, but I really loathe Wolverine & the X-Men, and it's sad because my favorite characters are in it!
    .tumblr
    by the light, by the truth, by sangreal and sword and pendragon's fire
    by defender's might and dragon circle's destiny behold thy bane!

    ✘ stephen strange

  10. #5485
    X Goin' to give it to ya graffiX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champagne View Post
    I really hope that when Nightcrawler returns, he isn't going to be a regular in Wolverine & the X-Men.
    Though, the "bamfs", Kitty Pryde, Rachel, and Wolverine all say otherwise. Since he has the perfect chemistry with those characters.
    It's just my opinion, but I really loathe Wolverine & the X-Men, and it's sad because my favorite characters are in it!
    Lol really? I'm on the totally opposite side of the coin.

    I HOPE Kurt (when he returns, I have faith it will be soon) joins the cast of WaTXM, because it would get me to pick up the book again. I like Aaron for the most part, I just don't care for anyone in the cast at the moment (except for a few of the students).

  11. #5486
    BAMF Brigade Sundowhn's Avatar
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    Ha! I guess I'm too easy to please. If he actually shows up in a title, I'll read it. :P

    I liked WatXM for the first 6 months or so. It's been hit or miss for me since. Some issues are really good, some not so much. I do think, though, that if any title was tailor made for Kurt Wagner, it's probably that one, with its Excalibur-esque tones. If they do bring him back, I sincerely hope the priest/wannabe priest is a thing of the past.

  12. #5487
    X Goin' to give it to ya graffiX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    I sincerely hope the priest/wannabe priest is a thing of the past.
    You and me both!

  13. #5488
    Junior Member Karl-5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M.Hammerman View Post
    Even with Evo Kurt and Kurt Waggoner, I'm not seeing much of a character-based connection. Stuff like the tech-geekery is so completely out of left field.

    I guess I had such a strong reaction against Xtreme #6 because it reminded me so much of a lot of the problems many of us had with that Origins retcon several years back. I mean, yeah, Kurt is a character who suffers, we all get that. But his hero story isn't about the fact of that suffering so much as the way he reacts to it, the way he tries to negotiate a way out of victimhood. Rather than have Kurt Waggoner's story be that of a stereotypical passive, picked-upon nerd, I feel like it would have been far more interesting, and a far far better Nightcrawler story, to have him be sort of a popular class clown and star athlete, yet always vaguely troubled by the terms of his success--always a bit worried that people are laughing at him rather than with him, liking him for what he can do, rather than who he is. Then the story would be about the difficulties of negotiating prejudice, rather than just the fact that prejudice exists.

    Anyway, rant over, I swear.
    I would not have liked Kid Kurt as a class clown, since that's one of the aspects of the original Kurt that I didn't particularly like.
    Bear in mind that the current issue issue went 2 years back into his past. He has not continued to be a passive victim. In a universe or two prior to the current one they are visiting, he made a big step toward standing up for himself, as shown here. Don't forget, he is still a child, in the company of some pretty overbearing adults. Self-confidence and assertiveness don't come into being overnight. I see him as starting to grow up into the man he will become, from the child that he was.


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  14. #5489
    BAMF Brigade Sundowhn's Avatar
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    Maybe Kidcrawler would work better as being the offspring of a version of Nightcrawler, rather than regressing Nightcrawler, himself, or an AU version. I can't think of a single existing character I'd want to see de-aged. I hated it with Storm (Little Ro), I dislike the idea with the original 5 now. Pak could've used, for example, Kurt's son of about the same age from Claremont's X-Men: the End. The kid hadn't been given a personality yet. Putting such a personality into a new character, but with a connection to an old one could have worked. I mean TJ (Nocturne) ended up being quite an interesting personality all on her own, even though her concept idea was basically as a female version of Kurt. It just worked because they didn't try to turn her into him, just gave them some things in common.
    Last edited by Sundowhn; 11-15-2012 at 01:36 PM.

  15. #5490
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    If Kurt returns he could adopt Kidcrawler or treat him like a brother.
    Jean Grey, Gwen Stacy, Professor X, Mar-Vell, Richard Rider, Kid Loki- Bring Them Back!!!

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