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  1. #1
    The Could-Have-Been King Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Sherlock Holmes vs Arsene Lupin

    I can not believe this has not been done yet.

    Two masters on opposite sides of the legal spectrum; a genius detective and a genius thief. Both are hyper intelligent, ludicrously skilled at deduction, almost incapable of making mistakes and possesses a vast array of useful skills and abilities. It's time for a showdown!

    Scenario 1: Lupin has sent a letter to a wealthy household where he explains that he intends to rob them of their most precious belongings. The intended victims quickly hire Sherlock Holmes to stop him.

    Scenario 2: Having spent some time in prison, Lupin grows tired of incarceration and informs his jailors that he intends to escape. Sherlock is called in to make sure he stays where he is.

    Scenario 3: Sherlock in hunting a criminal who has somehow offended Lupin, who decides to capture him personally. Both swear to track down the culprit before the other.

    Who comes out on top in this battle of wits?
    "This doesn't look easy. But I bet it is!"
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  2. #2
    Not chess ... poker! Marcus Antonius's Avatar
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    I'm not up on Lupin, and my love for Sherlock Holmes makes me want to give it to the Master Detective.

    But it looks like Lupin was written after Holmes and Lupin's author has written stories where Lupin has faced a barely-disguised Holmes pastiche. So my suspicion is that Lupin has the edge based on author fiat.

    As for your scenarios:

    1. Lupin wins more often than not. Holmes is often taken by surprise when he has not deduced the criminal's plan. In "The Adventure of the Solitary Cyclist" he nearly loses his client. On the other hand, Holmes only has to be right once to catch his quarry -- and he has a good chance of anticipating Lupin's plan. Just not a fifty percent chance.

    2. Lupin again. Holmes could probably with time deduce the manner in which Lupin intends to escape from prison but if Lupin can quickly exploit any weaknesses in the prison or its operation Holmes won't be able to stop him.

    3. I'd guess Holmes, supposing that both parties start with the same information. Not only is this Holmes' area of expertise but his connections with the police will help him track down his quarry more quickly than a criminal could (unless Lupin had an inside connection with the local criminal underworld).

  3. #3
    The Could-Have-Been King Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Antonius View Post
    I'm not up on Lupin, and my love for Sherlock Holmes makes me want to give it to the Master Detective.

    But it looks like Lupin was written after Holmes and Lupin's author has written stories where Lupin has faced a barely-disguised Holmes pastiche. So my suspicion is that Lupin has the edge based on author fiat.
    The two of them are fairly contemporary. The "Holmes pastiche" really was Sherlock Holmes, actually. Only, Arthur Conan Doyle didn't like Maurice Leblanc using his character as an antagonist and threatened legal action. Leblanc circumvented this by renaming the detective in his story "Herlock Sholmes."

    Anyway, I don't think we can really call Leblancs version of this rumble completely unbiased. (Of course, I haven't read that far yet, but given Doyle's reaction I can kinda guess who came out on top.)

    Still, Lupin does strike me as being pretty much an Anti-Holmes, so this fight did seem kinda inevitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Antonius View Post
    1. Lupin wins more often than not. Holmes is often taken by surprise when he has not deduced the criminal's plan. In "The Adventure of the Solitary Cyclist" he nearly loses his client. On the other hand, Holmes only has to be right once to catch his quarry -- and he has a good chance of anticipating Lupin's plan. Just not a fifty percent chance.

    2. Lupin again. Holmes could probably with time deduce the manner in which Lupin intends to escape from prison but if Lupin can quickly exploit any weaknesses in the prison or its operation Holmes won't be able to stop him.
    Well. from what I can tell, Lupin's modus operandi seems to be to use his own legend to build up public expectation, and then resort to the simplest possible course of action while everyone is busy looking for a grand spectacle. In other words, he picks the method that is so obvious that no one really considers it until it is too late.

    So, if Holmes does his homework by studying Lupin's past crimes, realizes this and makes sure to keep his head cool, he may figure out what Lupin is up to simply by resorting to Occam's razor.

    Of course, Lupin will probably take this in consideration as well and figure out counter measures, but that's where it kinda comes down to who is the sharper of the two.
    Last edited by Ghost; 05-11-2008 at 02:44 PM.
    "This doesn't look easy. But I bet it is!"
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    "Optimism through stalwart skepticism is a defect not everyone is lucky enough to be cursed with."
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  4. #4
    It's hip to be square! Syzygy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    I can not believe this has not been done yet.

    Two masters on opposite sides of the legal spectrum; a genius detective and a genius thief. Both are hyper intelligent, ludicrously skilled at deduction, almost incapable of making mistakes and possesses a vast array of useful skills and abilities. It's time for a showdown!

    Scenario 1: Lupin has sent a letter to a wealthy household where he explains that he intends to rob them of their most precious belongings. The intended victims quickly hire Sherlock Holmes to stop him.

    Scenario 2: Having spent some time in prison, Lupin grows tired of incarceration and informs his jailors that he intends to escape. Sherlock is called in to make sure he stays where he is.

    Scenario 3: Sherlock in hunting a criminal who has somehow offended Lupin, who decides to capture him personally. Both swear to track down the culprit before the other.

    Who comes out on top in this battle of wits?
    Never heard of this Lupin guy before. But I wikied it, and found a 2004 movie that looked interesting. Anyway, I ordered it from Amazon.

    Did you see the 2004 film, Ghost?

  5. #5
    The Could-Have-Been King Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syzygy View Post
    Never heard of this Lupin guy before.
    Not a lot of people have, really. Anime fans will know him as the ancestor of Lupin III, but that's about it.

    Which is weird given all the media that apparently feature him. Dude's has a ton of movies, TV shows and a cartoon. You'd think more people would have heard of him.

    I guess Sherlock hogs all the attention, eh?

    But I wikied it, and found a 2004 movie that looked interesting. Anyway, I ordered it from Amazon.

    Did you see the 2004 film, Ghost?
    Nope. I only recently started with the original stories by Leblanc. (A character in a story I'm working on is a "gentleman thief" of sorts, and I felt I needed some material to work with.) I was actually surprised to learn there was a recent movie.
    Last edited by Ghost; 05-11-2008 at 02:53 PM.
    "This doesn't look easy. But I bet it is!"
    -Homer Simpson

    "Optimism through stalwart skepticism is a defect not everyone is lucky enough to be cursed with."
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  6. #6
    New Member coffeebean's Avatar
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    Sorry for digging up this old topic. I came by it by chance searching Google and wanted to give it a go. :)

    1. Holmes wins. Lupin is on top of things, he sent out the letter, he arranges the robbery, but he does not anticipate Holmes stepping in. Lupin has to rework his plan to accommodate for this, he looses time and he also tends to loose his cool when Holmes is involved. This gives Holmes enough time to figure out Lupin's scheme.

    2. Lupin wins. He's proven many times that no prison can hold him. His escapes are usually due to an oversight by the people holding him. In this instance there are no clues for holmes to track, Arsene's the king of improvisation and decisions are made on the fly under such circumstances. All he has to do is wait for Holmes to put down his guard.

    3. If we're in France, Lupin wins. Lupin has his men everywhere in every level of society, he owns France, and Sherlock is unfamiliar with his surroundings giving him a great disadvantage.
    If we're outside of France, then Sherlock wins. He's known for his powers of deduction and encyclopedic knowledge, making him faster then Lupin, who often relies upon his men as an extension of himself to do research.

    Although Leblanc does pit Sherlock against Arsene from time to time, it's an understatement to call his portrayal of Holmes "biased". Leblanc's Holmes is aloof, rude, compassionless, self centered, and easily given to fits of rage (and he brings out the worst of Lupin when he's around). He's really not the Sherlock Holmes that everyone knows and loves. It would be interesting to actually see those two go at it.

    (And the 2004 Arsene Lupin movie isn't half bad :D )

  7. #7
    Veteran Member moonknight11's Avatar
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    I've seen a PC game about this at Walmart. As for the match. IDK.

  8. #8
    Strategist sun tzu's Avatar
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    Just when it looks like Lupin has successfully stolen the precious item, Holmes figures out his entire plan and who he's disguised himself as. He confronts him and takes the item back. Lupin escapes, but not before Holmes hits him in the guts with a super-fast football, comically injuring him.
    ...No, wait, that's Shinichi Kudo and Kaito Kid.

    More seriously...I've only read one Lupin book, but Holmes struck me as his superior, really. My money's on Sherlock in all three scenarios.

  9. #9
    BANNED The Immortal Watch Dog's Avatar
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    they seem like polar oposites for each other then

    lupin being really witty and the guy who can come up with genious plans on the spot but has to rely on a network

    holmes who has baffled watson with his inability to see beyond his "chain of reasoning"

    when the guy gets it in his head and he is very encylopedic and all but seems to be more incapable of on the fly reasoning

    laos has any one noticed how incredably prejudicial against mormons people where in that era? or at the very least athur was?

    i just read a study in scarlet..god damn

  10. #10
    Power with girl is better Powerboy's Avatar
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    If this is a composite, I would suspect Holmes would take it because there have been so many Holmes stories that there is virtually nothing he can't figure out. If its canon stories only (those written by Doyle and LeBlanc respectively), I don't know as I'm not familiar with Lupin. In fact, at first I thought you were referring to Poe's August Dupin.

  11. #11
    Power with girl is better Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog View Post
    they seem like polar oposites for each other then

    lupin being really witty and the guy who can come up with genious plans on the spot but has to rely on a network

    holmes who has baffled watson with his inability to see beyond his "chain of reasoning"

    when the guy gets it in his head and he is very encylopedic and all but seems to be more incapable of on the fly reasoning

    laos has any one noticed how incredably prejudicial against mormons people where in that era? or at the very least athur was?

    i just read a study in scarlet..god damn
    I thought about that. I read the story around 1979 or so. Reread it in the mid 1990s. It was definitely only one side of the story although apparently historically the stuff was true but still one side of the story. Since Doyle was in England, I'm guessing he was going pretty much on what he read and heard.

  12. #12
    BANNED The Immortal Watch Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I thought about that. I read the story around 1979 or so. Reread it in the mid 1990s. It was definitely only one side of the story although apparently historically the stuff was true but still one side of the story. Since Doyle was in England, I'm guessing he was going pretty much on what he read and heard.
    no offense but man your old kidding

    yeah well no people seemed to hate mormons all over the place

    its just the way he described them in that story was like they where some crazyed murderious sex cult

    and i felt like it went over board

    i bet the literature at the time had probably worse examples of it though

    edited: oh wait that kinda stuff actually happened back then? do you know if it was isolated cases or common place?
    Last edited by The Immortal Watch Dog; 08-23-2008 at 06:33 PM.

  13. #13
    Power with girl is better Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog View Post
    no offense but man your old kidding

    yeah well no people seemed to hate mormons all over the place

    its just the way he described them in that story was like they where some crazyed murderious sex cult

    and i felt like it went over board

    i bet the literature at the time had probably worse examples of it though

    edited: oh wait that kinda stuff actually happened back then? do you know if it was isolated cases or common place?
    I don't know all the details and I'm not great at remembering everyything I read. But I know that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young sort of represented two aspects of Mormonism. I believe they went their separate ways more or less. I think Young represented a more extreme or militaristic view or more keeping people in line through fear tactics.

    I looked here

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Reformation

    and it generally verifies that there was a time in Mormon history that there was some truth to what was presented in the "Scarlet" story.

    "To encourage reformation, certain adjunct theocratic committees may have attempted to ensure order and conformity by censuring localy troublemakers. Dissident Mormons of the time reported rumors that committees resorted to summary judgments with punishments meted out by enforcers colloquially termed "destroying angels". For example, the southern Utah pioneer and militia scout of the time John Chatterley later wrote that he had received threats from "secret Committee, called ...'destroying angels'" in late 1856 and early 1857.[2]. Commentators have pointed to pronouncements during this period by Brigham Young and his counselor Jedediah M. Grant which would seem to give vigilante-style bloodshed a religious basis. Young denied that any such acts were condoned by him or the church leadership."

  14. #14
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    My opinion:

    Lupin succeeds in stealing the item, only for Holmes to recover it and send him to jail.

    The next day, the guard finds a note saying 'Well done' directed to Holmes in Lupin's cell.
    Suffering is a fact of life. You survive if you find a reason to endure it.

  15. #15
    Elder Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    My opinion:

    Lupin succeeds in stealing the item, only for Holmes to recover it and send him to jail.

    The next day, the guard finds a note saying 'Well done' directed to Holmes in Lupin's cell.
    That's likely how it goes.

    Someone should write a crossover.

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