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  1. #16
    salt in my porridge jarrod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deus ex Chris View Post
    That's jarrod.
    I'm surprised Chris... I thought you had more discretion than that.

    Astonishing's like a closed set period piece... hamfisted nostalgia with a shiny coat of snappy dialog. It's also hugely ego-centric, with little interest in engaging (or even acknowledging) the wider established narrative or mythos, despite being the suppossed flagship book. And worse, it's embarrassingly overrated for redundant fluff... almost the opposite of Morrison's progressive, exciting and smart New X-Men (which itself was deceptively nostalgic, only in a good way). Morrison set the tone, Whedon hides from it.

    Seriously, I'm a big Whedon fan in general and can easily say his Astonishing is the worst stuff he's ever put out. It's predictable, it's limited, and it feels innately unreconcilable with the canon. He should've been stuck on Ultimate, and probably would've been if not for being unable to rehash the tired, finished, creepy Pitor/Kitty crush. Ellis can't come soon enough...

  2. #17
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    I think Astonishing is a great read.....if you can read it all at once either in TPBs or backissues, but waiting more than a year for an arc to finish then be told there's an extra issue that's the actual conclusion and not really have a set date when that arrives...it wears down your patience...and your ability to give a hoot.

  3. #18
    Wallace Likes It That Way Deus ex Chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
    I'm surprised Chris... I thought you had more discretion than that.
    I wasn't insulting you, lol. I was just saying. You are one of the harshest, most persistent critics of Astonishing on the board.

  4. #19
    Seasoned Member frog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
    I'm surprised Chris... I thought you had more discretion than that.

    Astonishing's like a closed set period piece... hamfisted nostalgia with a shiny coat of snappy dialog. It's also hugely ego-centric, with little interest in engaging (or even acknowledging) the wider established narrative or mythos, despite being the suppossed flagship book. And worse, it's embarrassingly overrated for redundant fluff... almost the opposite of Morrison's progressive, exciting and smart New X-Men (which itself was deceptively nostalgic, only in a good way). Morrison set the tone, Whedon hides from it.

    Seriously, I'm a big Whedon fan in general and can easily say his Astonishing is the worst stuff he's ever put out. It's predictable, it's limited, and it feels innately unreconcilable with the canon. He should've been stuck on Ultimate, and probably would've been if not for being unable to rehash the tired, finished, creepy Pitor/Kitty crush. Ellis can't come soon enough...
    Astonishing works just fine for me. It doesn't need to be like Morrisons's run, which, while entertaining, was far from perfect. It works very well as nice light entertainment.

  5. #20
    salt in my porridge jarrod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deus ex Chris View Post
    I wasn't insulting you, lol. I was just saying. You are one of the harshest, most persistent critics of Astonishing on the board.
    Heh, I didn't mean the confrontational commentary... I was leaning more towards viewpoint. You've got too much taste, or something, to be defending Whedon's pile. ;)

    I will admit though, that Whedon has some nice character moments (Scott and Emma seem to get them mostly though), and the art's solid. But overall, this project just seems confused on a level that's hard to really reconcile. Astonishing *could* be amazing, but it's far too slow, too insular, too deja vu, to ever really manage it. And directly following Morrison just makes those deficits all the more apparent imo.

  6. #21
    Wallace Likes It That Way Deus ex Chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
    Heh, I didn't mean the confrontational commentary... I was leaning more towards viewpoint. You've got too much taste, or something, to be defending Whedon's pile. ;)

    I will admit though, that Whedon has some nice character moments (Scott and Emma seem to get them mostly though), and the art's solid. But overall, this project just seems confused on a level that's hard to really reconcile. Astonishing *could* be amazing, but it's far too slow, too insular, too deja vu, to ever really manage it. And directly following Morrison just makes those deficits all the more apparent imo.
    Honestly, I loved the first story. I did. Everything after has suffered from a definite decrease in quality, but I'm a sucker for Whedon's dialogue and character interactions--and Cassaday also doesn't hurt. He certainly isn't Morrison by any stretch, but it's been fun.

  7. #22
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    I've never understood the hate for the "Danger" arc. Maybe the first arc was a little bit better simply because there was more characterization-time, but as a villain Danger was ten times more interesting than an alien with a metal faceguard/nose thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Yeah despite what some whedonites may say Astonishing x-men is a big disapointment, that has the occaisional kewl moment, but is mostly crap on a stick.
    I actively dislike everything else Whedon has done; I like Astonishing X-Men very much. Sometimes the world doesn't work out how we think it should, though. For instance, you have a Scott Pilgrim avi; you should be cool enough not to type "kewl".

    Quote Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
    It's also hugely ego-centric, with little interest in engaging (or even acknowledging) the wider established narrative or mythos, despite being the suppossed flagship book.
    That's because most of the "wider established narrative or mythos" is almost completely unfertile creatively. Whedon has "little interest engaging" with it--but so does an overwhelming majority of readers. It's almost gotten to the point where even X-Men comic fans don't have an interest in the ongoing mess. (Messiah Complex is a small upturn against that trend.) Writers gifted/lucky enough to be able to do what they want to do with the X-Men have wisely chosen NOT to familiarize themselves very much with the last 15 years of continuity (i.e., the 2,3843,208 comics books published then) and just pick the aspects of the "mythos" that they like best. Morrison basically prided himself in an interview circa 2001 about NOT having read any X-Titles in ten years.

    . . . And that "despite being the suppossed [sic] flagship book"-thing is Marvel's marketing scheme--nothing more. Honestly, how is that even a problem? If you want someone to read only ONE X-Title, of course you pick Astonishing. Having Uncanny be the flagship would mean that Marvel promotes a lesser-quality product with strong narrative ties to ten other books. Gee, I guess Marvel should have put more marketing behind that title instead...:rolleyes: It all depends on your definition of "flagship", too. Uncanny will always be the flagship in a sense, but it's almost wise for Marvel to downplay that.

    I understand what you're saying about nostalgia: Whedon's nostalgia is comparatively shallower and backward-leaning, whereas Morrison's was comparatively deeper (if not "opaque" at times) and forward-looking. Whedon's story is blatantly designed to be "the X-Men as HE wants them"; and you can call that egocentric, but all things considered Whedon's version appeals to a larger audience than Morrison's New X-Men. So I think Whedon's "egoism" can be in a sense forgiven: he's also giving a larger audience almost exactly what it wants anyway. The downside of "egoism" (not a completely, inherently negative word) usually means that only the egoist is pleased--that's hardly the case with the best-selling X-Title.

    You do understand that Morrison's run was itself basically the inspiration for Whedon's, right? With that being the case, I can certainly "forgive" Whedon for having "only" the second-best run on X-Men in probably 20 years.

    It's predictable, it's limited, and it feels innately unreconcilable with the canon.
    Um, the editors ARE reconciling it with the canon, though I think it's lame to care so much about a canon of continuity that's generally so unwieldy anyway. I'd worry about the things in Messiah Complex (HOW did Cable not die?? Oh let's just forget about it..) being reconciled with the canon MUCH more than I'd worry about Astonishing. Almost any given issue of one of the core titles from the last 15 years is more problematic continuity-wise than the entire run of Astonishing. Astonishing doesn't affect much, but it is being reconciled. It's in continuity--DON'T WORRY. Just like they neutered a lot of Morrison's best ideas after he left, they'll make sure that Whedon's run fits in too--y'know, because in a few years they're going to want all of the imaginary Hellfire Club from Emma's mind to fight the REAL Hellfire Club in a different dimension from Bishop's past where Apocalypse is President and Exodus has a stable power-level, and it will all be released as Untold Tales of Astonishing X-Men: The Last World-Break written by Jeph Loeb with variant Liefeld covers. And in it Armor really will be a member of Excalibur.

    But..."predictable"? I wasn't reading the series at the time, but wasn't Colossus' return a SHOCK to people? Was it "predictable" to make the Danger Room a villain? I know on these boards 12-18 months ago everyone was coming up with incorrect explanations about what was going on in the "Torn" arc. And to my knowledge everyone is still wondering about who'll be the X-Men that's going to be "left behind".--If that information leaked, that's the "fault" of the internet, because Whedon's plot hasn't given that away.

    The dialog is maybe a little predictable. I hate some of Kitty's cuter expressions that Whedon has done (e.g. her reaction to seeing the old White Queen in issue 17 or so). And I think Whedon did the Wolverine/beer gag one too many times. I wouldn't have had him thinking "I like beer" during one of the fights in the earlier arcs. Those are my only major complaints.
    Last edited by flapjaxx; 01-22-2008 at 12:00 PM.

  8. #23

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    Hmm, this is interesting.

    I think I flicked through Astonishing 1 once, but I have not read most of the series, even though 23 provided some of the best moments in the comic, simply because I wasn't interested in something so resolutely out of continuity. I like a bit of interaction, and the wider picture. But I do also like something that is just a damn good story, no excuses, no apologies.

    I may thus have to pick up AXM 1-6. I am also a bit Buffy fan, even if I preferred Vaugh's arc of Season 8 to Whedon's opening one.

  9. #24
    more lemon pledge xmanson's Avatar
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    Don't bother with the rest, it's crap. And if you do bother, at least the crap won't last, you'll be able to read it all in less than 15 minutes.

    And, well, if seeing Logan watching Scott sleep didn't make you want to vomit on the first issue, ther's chance you'll love all of it.
    Last edited by xmanson; 01-22-2008 at 12:18 PM.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
    I'm surprised Chris... I thought you had more discretion than that.

    Astonishing's like a closed set period piece... hamfisted nostalgia with a shiny coat of snappy dialog. It's also hugely ego-centric, with little interest in engaging (or even acknowledging) the wider established narrative or mythos, despite being the suppossed flagship book. And worse, it's embarrassingly overrated for redundant fluff... almost the opposite of Morrison's progressive, exciting and smart New X-Men (which itself was deceptively nostalgic, only in a good way). Morrison set the tone, Whedon hides from it.

    Seriously, I'm a big Whedon fan in general and can easily say his Astonishing is the worst stuff he's ever put out. It's predictable, it's limited, and it feels innately unreconcilable with the canon. He should've been stuck on Ultimate, and probably would've been if not for being unable to rehash the tired, finished, creepy Pitor/Kitty crush. Ellis can't come soon enough...
    I agree. It's a overrated, unoriginal, mediocre book.

  11. #26
    Rogue Vogue Mr. Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarrod View Post
    Astonishing's like a closed set period piece... hamfisted nostalgia with a shiny coat of snappy dialog. It's also hugely ego-centric, with little interest in engaging (or even acknowledging) the wider established narrative or mythos, despite being the suppossed flagship book. And worse, it's embarrassingly overrated for redundant fluff... almost the opposite of Morrison's progressive, exciting and smart New X-Men (which itself was deceptively nostalgic, only in a good way). Morrison set the tone, Whedon hides from it.


    I don't find it very hard to appreciate both Whedon and Morrison's books. I love both (well, haven't read any of Whedon's final arc). I don't believe that to be a good flagship the title must be constantly acknowledging "mythos" ~ in fact, a good flagship (read: mainstream attention, leading the franchise as a good intro to all things X-Men) book probably should be more accessible than the others, not dwelling entirely on contonuity while building on new "mythos". I think Whedon balances both - he certainly references information relevant to the story arc, and also creates viable new additions to the X-Men/Marvel Universe (SWORD, for example, a concept which I am very excited about!).

    But that's my opinion. Annd we're not in total disagreement ~ at least you like Morrison ~ and as I said, I love Morrison! :D
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  12. #27

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    Having read New X-Men and Astonishing X-Men in a hardcover format, I would say that Joss Whedon's work is better.

    Grant Morrison is executing ambitious things that backfires at him (e.g., his Xorn/Magneto story is so damn hard to reconcile regardless of the eventual Marvel retcon), tries to make the X-men hip by wearing leather X-men movie-ish clothes (which failed to do the job), and decides to make a retcon (Weapon Plus) that he wasn't successfully able to add coherence to the previous status quo.

    The only part in his entire stint that I really liked is his pairing of Scott and Emma, and Here Comes Tomorrow (which wouldn't be that good if it weren't for the Silvestri assist).

    Whedon is good at character interactions (even is there's a generous amount of witty remarks), and the only legitimate weakness of this title is the delays, which doesn't really affect me that much because I would just wait for the HC. And more importantly, plotwise, Astonishing is waaaaay cleaner than NXM would have ever dreamed of--no Xorn Deux Ex Machina that would ruin your sense of logic.

  13. #28
    Awra DeniseXfrost's Avatar
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    Yeb it's one of the best books out there.

  14. #29
    Assimilation or Death Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypocalypse_Complex View Post
    , tries to make the X-men hip by wearing leather X-men movie-ish clothes (which failed to do the job)
    That was Marvel's demand. And it ended because they wanted too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cypocalypse_Complex View Post
    and decides to make a retcon (Weapon Plus) that he wasn't successfully able to add coherence to the previous status quo.
    Nothing would, but he made it more interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cypocalypse_Complex View Post
    Whedon is good at character interactions (even is there's a generous amount of witty remarks), and the only legitimate weakness of this title is the delays, which doesn't really affect me that much because I would just wait for the HC. And more importantly, plotwise, Astonishing is waaaaay cleaner than NXM would have ever dreamed of--no Xorn Deux Ex Machina that would ruin your sense of logic.
    More like AXM is the really good summer blockbuster, fun and entertaining, but nothing extremely deep, while Morrison's NXM is more like a big, ambitious project that revolutionizes the genre it's in (or the X-men comics, in that case), but gets more rejection because it's biggest scope and because people feel "it's now how movies should be".
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  15. #30
    Big 'Un Fatguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frog View Post
    I'm not a Whedonite, have never watched his shows, but I enjoy it just fine.
    I agree, I hate Buffy (the show, not the movie. The movie kicked ass! Kristy Swanson = hotness!), but I love Astonishing. Aside from its staggering lateness, it looks pretty and has fun dialogue. And it brought back Colossus!
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