Popular Comics Tracker Threatened with Legal Action

[Ed Cunard]

I'm a bit surprised by you advocating not reading as a solution.

They could always read books.

Judging by some fans I've met, that would probably be more beneficial for them in terms of literacy.

[Paul McEnery]

Sure you can charge based on demand of virtual goods (more downloads equal more bandwidth usage and maintenance.)

But Forseti was saying the age of the material would determine the price. Being that older material would cost less.

Yes, and I'm saying that's exactly backwards. Newer material would cost more.

In some ways, I'd say the back catalogue should be regarded as a loss leader, unless you're working the Dave Sim tip.

[StoneGold]

Yes, and I'm saying that's exactly backwards. Newer material would cost more.

In some ways, I'd say the back catalogue should be regarded as a loss leader, unless you're working the Dave Sim tip.

That would seem to be the way Marvel is treating their online catalog.

[Paul McEnery]

That would seem to be the way Marvel is treating their online catalog.

That's right, and I think they're being mostly smart about it with the Essentials stuff. But dumb with the format as I've heard about it online.

But that does lead us back to the painful ethical question of whether the catalog is really theirs to do with as they please.

[StoneGold]

That's right, and I think they're being mostly smart about it with the Essentials stuff. But dumb with the format as I've heard about it online.

But that does lead us back to the painful ethical question of whether the catalog is really theirs to do with as they please.

I missed that part of the question. What, you mean in terms of royalties? Granted, the actual cut could be more clear, but I think they're figuring that out as they go. Supposedly. Otherwise, except for stuff like Rom, they should be in the clear.

There's no question Marvel's DCU could be better, but it's not bad. Pretty damn good for a first try. It's not a be-all, end-all solution, but it's not crap, either. Seriously, the people who are writing about it, mentioning the one thing they don't like, and then writing "Fail.", they're morons. Stupid people. Yeah, it's not an A++++ format, but the thing has been up for like two weeks.

[Paul McEnery]

I missed that part of the question. What, you mean in terms of royalties? Granted, the actual cut could be more clear, but I think they're figuring that out as they go. Supposedly. Otherwise, except for stuff like Rom, they should be in the clear.

Legally, yes. Ethically, not so much.

There's no question Marvel's DCU could be better, but it's not bad. Pretty damn good for a first try. It's not a be-all, end-all solution, but it's not crap, either. Seriously, the people who are writing about it, mentioning the one thing they don't like, and then writing "Fail.", they're morons. Stupid people. Yeah, it's not an A++++ format, but the thing has been up for like two weeks.

Hmm. Sounds like a fail in principle, to me, just from the fact that it uses a Flash front door. Then again, that's not how I want to read my comics, because I think it mostly murders the artistic intention. Then again, unless someone's got a screen the size of an open comic book, you're kind of screwed on that anyway.

[J. Robb]

If you had your way, how would comics be distributed digitally?

Keep in mind you have to keep print retailers happy. Plus as a publicly held company such as Marvel and DC(via Time/Warner) you have to keep your stock holders happy.

How would creators get paid for digital copies?

I think the number one thing Marvel and DC could do to keep interest in buying their books (as opposed to downloading) is to give up the battle for shelfspace and focus on quality over quantity.

Ten crappy X-Men-related titles a month really doesn't elicit much excitment, and for that amount of money I'm not surprised to hear people are downloading them instead of buying them. If there was one X-Men book a month, with a top notch writer and artist, each issue would become more meaningful and I really believe more people would be inclined to buy it.

Would this keep the print retailers happy? Heck no, it would probably put a lot of comic shops out of business. But there's a good chance that will be happening eventually anyways (except the smart ones who offer a wide diversity of products.) The Marvel/DC strategy of keeping comic shops afloat by releasing tons of low-quality product and hoping that a small group of loyal readers will buy dozens of titles a month just won't work anymore.

As for smaller companies, or ones starting out, I think the best way to go is to just offer free web-comics, and hope you get enough fans to start marketing "hard copies", and maybe some other licensing.

I think trying to compete with online sharing is a losing game, because you can't compete with free. The best idea is to probably just consider it advertising, and hope your product is good enough to generate revenue in other ways.

But I'm no futurist, and there's a good chance I'm 100% wrong.

[Paul McEnery]

I think the number one thing Marvel and DC could do to keep interest in buying their books (as opposed to downloading) is to give up the battle for shelfspace and focus on quality over quantity.

Ten crappy X-Men-related titles a month really doesn't elicit much excitment, and for that amount of money I'm not surprised to hear people are downloading them instead of buying them. If there was one X-Men book a month, with a top notch writer and artist, each issue would become more meaningful and I really believe more people would be inclined to buy it.

One Giant-Size Xmen book. Two/Three continuing stories/creative teams. Lots of extra matter. Trades of the stories that hit the spot.

Would this keep the print retailers happy? Heck no, it would probably put a lot of comic shops out of business..

Doubt it. At least, I hope not. Because otherwise they're all going out of business anyway.

[Rio_de_Janeiro]

a point where the crossover between staunch capitalist thinking meets marxist analysis.

i always thought the capitalist would view this whole new territory as a natural consequence of what came before both in terms of ethics and praxis. there is a whole new field to explore and how can i make money from it. pure capitalism. i think there was a very precise point made by paul and i agree with him with regards to the pricing practices by marvel.

but these new means can also be subverted and they help demolish the old systems...

cheers,
6

[Forseti]

But Forseti was saying the age of the material would determine the price. Being that older material would cost less.

I wasn't saying age would determine the price. I was suggesting the price be decreased with age. Obviously, it would be an arbitrary decision and not one given as a consequence of anything.

[Brandon Hanvey]

a point where the crossover between staunch capitalist thinking meets marxist analysis.

i always thought the capitalist would view this whole new territory as a natural consequence of what came before both in terms of ethics and praxis. there is a whole new field to explore and how can i make money from it. pure capitalism. i think there was a very precise point made by paul and i agree with him with regards to the pricing practices by marvel.

but these new means can also be subverted and they help demolish the old systems...

Well some capitalist are scared of the digital model since it is new and find it hard to make profit off of it at this point.

There are basically 3 models of making money off digital media.

Ad support. Where you make money off the viewers of your media via ads.

Merch support. Where you make money off products related to your media: t-shirts, stickers, books, etc.

Direct purchase. This includes subscriptions, mirco-payments, pay-per-download.

Most comics on the web go with the first two. Most direct purchase models make little profit at this point though there are some successes here and there.

[Marveluted]

Ok, I've been a long time reader of CBR, and I feel I have to jump in on this thread. I apologize for the length, but I feel if publishers like Marvel fail to provide the right offer to p2p downloaders, then they will fail to monetize a lucrative market. That could push the industry into a slump worse then the 90s bubble.

Aside from the argument being that P2P is "simply stealing," the way that Marvel is handling this is simply wrong, not from an ethical perspective, but from a MARKETING perspective. As someone that works in online marketing, I can tell you that while the comic book publishers are well within their rights to take down p2p sites, they need to offer a viable alternative. And the publisher-owned alternative needs to meet the needs/desires of the current online user, which the new digital Marvel service DOES NOT.

Putting aside its illegality for a second, comic file sharing has done 2 very positive things for the industry: 1) It provided a quick source of back issue access many readers could not get at smaller comic stores. 2) It provided a channel by which older, yet still interested, comic fans could read and collect comics without the stigma of going to a “child’s” comic shop or having friends and family make comments on comics lying around the house. In essence, p2p comic downloads allowed new readers the chance to delve deeper into the worlds of their favorite heroes through readily available back issues, AND allowed older users to stay current with ongoing series while keeping a slightly embarrassing (for some) hobby discreet.

Let’s also not forget the residual effect P2P has on building the audience for Marvel movies at the box office. Let’s face it. Iron Man being such a prominent figure in the Marvel Initiative/Civil War storyline won’t exactly hurt box office receipts. Giving users a way of tracking Iron Man across multiple books in a massive Marvel Universe crossover, and doing so in real-time, keeps interest in Iron Man high for the summer release. It’s in Marvel’s best interest to keep digital going, whether legal or illegal.

Now the new digital Marvel model, allows for access to some back issues but, at the moment, only in limited numbers (so far), so limited opportunity to read through massive crossovers for younger readers. Marvel does provide online access to zero-day releases, so no instant gratification for older readers. Additionally, without download functionality, traditional users will not get to enjoy the feeling of “collecting” that physical comics provide.

I get the point of this. Marvel wants to turn digital readers into physical readers. Change of behavior, however, is one of the harder points of marketing, especially such a drastic behavior change. Marvel wants take users accustomed to instant gratification and get them out of their computer chairs and into the shops, doing so through digital starvation (meaning an incomplete meeting of the customers needs). Why do this? Because it saves the relationship with the distributor, whom is also resistant to digitalization since it undercuts their business.

Can p2p readers be monetized by Marvel? Yes, if you give them what they really want. P2P comic downloads make it clear that online readers want 3 things: 1) instant access to new releases (hence the popularity of zero-day p2p release groups), 2) access to the back catalog of their favorite titles, and 3) an ability to keep and collect their e-comics.

If Marvel truly has any hope of monetizing these comic enthusiasts (and lets call them what they are – if you’re going out of your way to find file sharing sites and doing so for comic books, your interest in comics must be above the average), then they must meet these three needs. I recommend that Marvel build out their current model in the following fashion:

Start making zero-day releases available online the same day as they ship to stores. The users have already learned this desire through file sharing, much like older users learned their collection mentality in the brick-and-mortar stores. Will this affect physical sales? Yes. Will this decrease distribution costs while monetizing an otherwise leeching audience? Double Yes.

While new digital comics are rolled out at the same time as the physical, slowly build up the back catalog. Start with major crossover and events, as well as popular titles (the first War Machine limited series can wait a few months to go digital). In time, you’ll meet the needs of continuity fans.

Additionally, users still want to collect, so Marvel should allow downloading of digital comics. This must be worked out in the payment model, but it can be done. Consider either different subscription plans for downloads, or making downloading a pay-per-issue affair similar to iTunes. I’ll admit, this may require a bit of testing or focus grouping to find out the right model (newspapers are still tweaking their online models), but incorporating downloading will ingratiate many readers that have a collecting mentality to Marvel Digital. Marvel needs to realize that any image online can and will be screencapped, regardless of security. These comics will be downloaded in some fashion, so why not capitalize on it?

Here’s a radical idea that Marvel won’t consider. Why not hire the illegal scanners? By putting at least a few of them on the payroll to digitize their back catalog, Marvel gets a major PR boost among digital users, diminishes the threat of p2p scans, gains experienced scanners (that are already diehard comic fans), and may gain access to new ideas on digital. By opening a dialog with p2p scanners rather than criminalizing them, Marvel can gain a quick edge in the digital market. Of course, they’ll never go for it.

Understanding the true wants of the target audience means that distribution has to change. Physical sales will most likely decrease as digital sales increase. If the industry is to succeed at digital, this is unavoidable. This does not mean that interest in comics is decreasing – far from it. Digital, if done correctly, can create direct paths to new, untapped markets. Both the publishers and distributors have to change their business model in order to adapt to an increasingly online world.

Is p2p comic distribution illegal? Yes, certainly. But that doesn’t mean that Marvel can’t address the situation while not losing face with the core downloading audience. Provide a business model that meets the needs of the digital customer at a fair price, and they will happily pay.

[Paul McEnery]

Well some capitalist are scared of the digital model since it is new and find it hard to make profit off of it at this point.

There are basically 3 models of making money off digital media.

Ad support. Where you make money off the viewers of your media via ads.

Merch support. Where you make money off products related to your media: t-shirts, stickers, books, etc.

Direct purchase. This includes subscriptions, mirco-payments, pay-per-download.

Most comics on the web go with the first two. Most direct purchase models make little profit at this point though there are some successes here and there.

Of course you can merge the second and third easily enough.

Which actually would give us the 18th Century publishing model (do I mean the 18th?) of publishing by subscription. Rather like Einsturzende did with their latest album -- got a studio built out of it as well, I believe.

And I'm not so sure that's so very different from the Dave Sim model.

[Brandon Hanvey]

I forgot to add donations/tip jars/wish lists into the payment models which are kind of their own thing.

[Lord Destiny]

Putting aside its illegality for a second, comic file sharing has done 2 very positive things for the industry: 1) It provided a quick source of back issue access many readers could not get at smaller comic stores.

Well said. While most shops keep plenty of back issues of popular titles (most especially Marvel and DC superheroes), the vast majority of comic books published in the U.S. since the 1930s are impossible to find. Want to read 50s Timely comics? Tower Comics? King Comics? Good luck finding them. And good luck affording them.

File sharing put a great many comics in fans' hands that they would NEVER have otherwise enjoyed.

Does anybody believe DC is going to reprint all those backup series in Adventure, Action, or Detective in their lifetime? Not bloody likely. 99+% of the Golden Age (and most of all comics published prior to 1980) is simply unreachable for 99+% of comic fandom. DC can cry all it wants, but file sharing of these issues is not harmful in the least.