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  1. #1
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    Default Supergirl # 22 (Spoilers)

    Dear Mr. Bedard,

    Great job on your last issue of Supergirl! But, of course, I am really sad to see it end. You have done such a SUPER job with your portrayal of Kara. I love that you wrote her as a teenage girl, and without all the silly stereotypes and phrases. Thank You for not dumbing down Kara! Your dialogue for her is so believable! Also, I really just loved seeing Kara do all the heroic stuff such as lifting up that train Equus dropped on her, and tossing it into space!

    I must say also that I truly enjoyed reading the final couple of pages featuring Kal and Kara. I canít praise this scene enough! I just love the way Kara expresses her view that she does not need Kalís validation, that she is learning even if it is the hard way, and that she wants to be a family. Then Kal tells her he knows Kara is doing fine and that even though she made a mistake she bounced back to do some good in Washington. This shows that Kara does indeed have a backbone! She is not afraid to express her opinions. And she is so tough, kindhearted, and really wants to do the right thing! I love all these things about the character. Kara is a Super Ö Girl! She is not Superman in a skirt, but rather a spirited teenager who has the same powers as her cousin. Kara is her own person.

    Finally, I really just want to praise Renato Guedesí art again! He makes Kara look human, and like a real teenage girl with so much personality! It really is so refreshing to see some Supergirl art that concentrates on defining her character rather than her sexuality.

    Great job Mr. Bedard and Mr. Guedes! Your work sets a path that hopefully the next creative team will expand upon while making it their own. Your work also makes me feel so much more positive about Karaís future in the comics, and I plan on continuing buying the Supergirl title.

    Sincerely,
    John

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    I have to wait until between 5 and 6 tonight to pick up my copy, but I have some comments based on the link below.

    http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gal...b0fd97815e87f4


    She doesn't look awful in the pic, just awkward and not normal. I mean Renato really bummed me with out with the pic because he finally gave her some stomach muscle, but in return has her twisting and turned in an angle which in turn takes what probably would have been a decent sized waist and makes it much thicker looking than it should look/is.

    Her face tones and textures along with upper body still make her look at least mid to late 30's, which is sad, but he fixed the stomach muscle issue before he left.

    For this run of supergirl artist wise we've had

    Churchill: Amazing art, good designs, gives her stomach mucsle which people who don't understand that hero look fit like they work out, because normal girl don't work out call her anorexic when she clearly wasn't. Her face and hair were perfect. He did a great Cassie too.

    Garza: Too Cartoony(though his titans were less so and amazing. He also chopped up supergirls long good hair and gave her bangs, too bad looking bad moves. He also put a headband on her which looked ridiculous and was a key reason(though she did at other times too why she looked 11/12 instead of 17, with two year old baby face expressions.

    Renato: Went to polar extremes of Churchill's to please girlwonder.org type fans. Made her years older than she should have and until the final issue made her thicker without the flatness Garza had or the stomach muscle Churchill had. Also had a panel in SG21 where Cassie showed up looking like her cheeks were about to explode from having 6 or more cheeseburgers in her mouth at once. Had supergirl with her ankles as thick as her thighs in opening issue and legs bending in ways normal people cannot./

    Finally fixed the stomach muscle issue, but made weird angle of her landing in picture above which makes her look very awkward thickness wise.


    Drew Johnson: Looks like he'll bring it back to how amazing churchill had it with the art. Cannot wait.

  3. #3
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    Hi Johnny LuckÖ Well, I Ďd say the only thing artistically about this Supergirl run we can agree upon is that Ale Garzaís art was too cartoony.

    Ian Churchillís art is far too thin, too unrealistic, and too sexual. How thin Kara is is scary to me! No normal looking girl could look like that! And is this really the message that comics creators want to send to young girls and everybody else that being stick thin is an ideal? In regards to the stomach muscles, she is too muscular. Personally, I think if Kara is Supergirl then she does not need such drastic muscles to prove that she can kick ass! Finally, the art is too sexual. In Supergirl #3 when Kara breaks her chains during a fight it looks like her costume was spray painted on to her body. Iím not a prudish person by any means, but that it not the kind of image I want to see for my favorite superhero.

    Also, I disliked how Churchill made both Cassie and Kara look the same to me. He should have made them look different.

    Renato Guedesí art is the BEST art of this Supergirl run in my opinion! And for the record I proudly say that Iím a girlwonder.com type fan! As far as I can tell though Guedes had already designed the character before anybody from girlwonder.com ever saw what he had in mind. So, I donít think he was trying to cater to any particular fan base. He just drew Kara as he saw her- a real teenage girl. His Kara looks real, relatable, heroic, sensitive, and Super strong! She has well toned muscles. They just are not hyper stylized ones. And she looks beautiful! Kara is not ashamed of her body, and she does not need to flaunt it to the world. She can be covered up and still look fantastic because she has confidence in herself and abilities. This art concentrates on character rather than sexuality in my opinion. Guedes gives her heart and soul while the previous artists donít. Finally, I truthfully just donít see the things about his art that you are criticizing. Everything looks great to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_Luck View Post
    I have to wait until between 5 and 6 tonight to pick up my copy, but I have some comments based on the link below.

    http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gal...b0fd97815e87f4


    She doesn't look awful in the pic, just awkward and not normal. I mean Renato really bummed me with out with the pic because he finally gave her some stomach muscle, but in return has her twisting and turned in an angle which in turn takes what probably would have been a decent sized waist and makes it much thicker looking than it should look/is.

    Her face tones and textures along with upper body still make her look at least mid to late 30's, which is sad, but he fixed the stomach muscle issue before he left.

    For this run of supergirl artist wise we've had

    Churchill: Amazing art, good designs, gives her stomach mucsle which people who don't understand that hero look fit like they work out, because normal girl don't work out call her anorexic when she clearly wasn't. Her face and hair were perfect. He did a great Cassie too.

    Garza: Too Cartoony(though his titans were less so and amazing. He also chopped up supergirls long good hair and gave her bangs, too bad looking bad moves. He also put a headband on her which looked ridiculous and was a key reason(though she did at other times too why she looked 11/12 instead of 17, with two year old baby face expressions.

    Renato: Went to polar extremes of Churchill's to please girlwonder.org type fans. Made her years older than she should have and until the final issue made her thicker without the flatness Garza had or the stomach muscle Churchill had. Also had a panel in SG21 where Cassie showed up looking like her cheeks were about to explode from having 6 or more cheeseburgers in her mouth at once. Had supergirl with her ankles as thick as her thighs in opening issue and legs bending in ways normal people cannot./

    Finally fixed the stomach muscle issue, but made weird angle of her landing in picture above which makes her look very awkward thickness wise.


    Drew Johnson: Looks like he'll bring it back to how amazing churchill had it with the art. Cannot wait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    Hi Johnny Luck… Well, I ‘d say the only thing artistically about this Supergirl run we can agree upon is that Ale Garza’s art was too cartoony.

    Ian Churchill’s art is far too thin, too unrealistic, and too sexual. How thin Kara is is scary to me! No normal looking girl could look like that! And is this really the message that comics creators want to send to young girls and everybody else that being stick thin is an ideal? In regards to the stomach muscles, she is too muscular. Personally, I think if Kara is Supergirl then she does not need such drastic muscles to prove that she can kick ass! Finally, the art is too sexual. In Supergirl #3 when Kara breaks her chains during a fight it looks like her costume was spray painted on to her body. I’m not a prudish person by any means, but that it not the kind of image I want to see for my favorite superhero.
    This is where we strongly have to agree to disagree.

    1.Saying Kara doesn't need stomach muscles because shes a super powered alien and would look fine with none is like saying clark would be belieavble as superman is he looked like a pencil. Superman has a giant amount of muscles as do most if not all heroes. Its the norm for heros to have muslces and to look like they work out/are fit. Trying to make Kara look like the normal teenager girl with no muscles and bigger weight is an insult to fans and girls because its like saying we have to remove things she has to make you feel better about how you look in real life.

    No one in real life looks like superheroes its unrealistic to think otherwise, so the goal shouldn't be to make her as human, muscle free and normal as possible, as shes a superhero, whose an alien and not something a normal person could obtain.

    2. Shes definately not rail thin like some people exaggerrate. a lot of peole make it out to be like shes skinner than churchill actually had her being. She was thick enough to support the stomach muscles she had/should have and have more meet on her bones than most celebs who look/are fit do.

    3. I definately don't think the sexual part is as true as your trying to make it sound. Sure some issues had hints of it, but it was never upfront or over the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    Also, I disliked how Churchill made both Cassie and Kara look the same to me. He should have made them look different.
    Do me one small favor before commenting on this again, please go back and just skim to the part on the bridge(SG #10) with Kara/Casse and Gorilla grodd. Not only is it easy to tell by the costume they have whom is which, but their faces are wider(Cassie) and thinner(Kara) both with different hair styles. Cassie up and over to both sides and Kara combed over to one side.

    His Cassie and Kara were some of the best I have seen while together and he made them look much different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    Renato Guedes’ art is the BEST art of this Supergirl run in my opinion! And for the record I proudly say that I’m a girlwonder.com type fan! As far as I can tell though Guedes had already designed the character before anybody from girlwonder.com ever saw what he had in mind. So, I don’t think he was trying to cater to any particular fan base. He just drew Kara as he saw her- a real teenage girl. His Kara looks real, relatable, heroic, sensitive, and Super strong! She has well toned muscles. They just are not hyper stylized ones. And she looks beautiful! Kara is not ashamed of her body, and she does not need to flaunt it to the world. She can be covered up and still look fantastic because she has confidence in herself and abilities. This art concentrates on character rather than sexuality in my opinion. Guedes gives her heart and soul while the previous artists don’t. Finally, I truthfully just don’t see the things about his art that you are criticizing. Everything looks great to me.
    1. Renato's art was the WORST this title has seen, but luckily it was only three issues.

    2. I don't know where you grow your normal teenagers around where you live, but most of the teenagers that look like teenagers look like teenagers here and not late 30's early 40's age wise with skin and face textures. I mean theres teenagers that look a few years older than they are and then theres Renatos version of Kara.

    3. Yes she can be covered up and not have to flaut her looks to the world and still be confident, but even more so she can have decent looking clothes show a tiny bit of skin without flaunting her body and still have that same confidence in herself that she would if she covered up more. Its ridculous to say covering someone up more will give them more confidence in how they look if they don't mind showing skin due to how proud of the body they are.

    4. Go back and look at early panels of 20 and you'll see(hopefully as it is there) that her legs bend backwards at places they shouldn't and her ankles are as thick as her thighs.

    5. Drew Johnson is going to be amazing based on 23 preview and IMHo will bring the book back to where and started lacking when Garza took over.
    Last edited by Johnny_Luck; 10-05-2007 at 09:10 PM.

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    A few points:

    1) I donít recall ever saying that Kara doesnít need stomach muscles and looks fine with out any. What I said is that Kara has well toned muscles, and does not need such drastic, hyper stylized ones.

    2) I checked out Supergirl #10, and believe me the moment you are referring to with Cassie and Kara on the bridge proves my point perfectly. In fact if it were not for the clothing Iíd say they were twins. Their faces are identical! Merely having slightly different hair styles hardly makes Cassie and Kara look like distinct characters.

    3) I hardly think it is an exaggeration to state that Churchillís Kara is rail thin.

    4) Before you comment again on sexuality please check out these issues:

    Issue #3 the way Kara is posed while kissing the evil Kal El

    The first few pages of Issue #5

    The whole pool scene in Issue #9

    Overall, I just dislike many of the outfits she is wearing

    As well as the gratuitous up the skirt shots

    5) Guedes makes Kara like a teenager. Late 30s or early 40s??? I think that is a pretty gross overstatement! And what do you mean by bigger weight? Kara looks fit and healthy to me. She looks pretty much looks like many teenagers I have seen.

    6) In regards to issue #20 I can see Guedes showing Kara putting Air Force One the ground. As far as I can tell the legs are bending correctly. I think her ankles are fine too.

    7) Iíll withhold judgment on Drew Johnsonís Supergirl until I see issue 23. From what I have seen of his work on Wonder Woman he seems to draw well. But really what is important to me is how Kara is going to be characterized by the new writer. Even if Johnsonís art is excellent it will not matter if Kara goes back to like she was before Mr. Bedard.

    Issue 14 Kara: ďThinking hasnít really been my strong suit.Ē

    Issue 9 Kara: ďThank youÖ For everything. I had a good timeÖ mostly, thanks for not treating me like jailbait.Ē

    Overall, to me Renato Guedesí art is worth defending in forums like this. His art respects the character, and does not exploit her. He makes her look like a real teenager, and a genuine hero you can be proud of. And Mr. Bedard portrayed Kara with his words the way she should be!


    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_Luck View Post
    This is where we strongly have to agree to disagree.

    1.Saying Kara doesn't need stomach muscles because shes a super powered alien and would look fine with none is like saying clark would be belieavble as superman is he looked like a pencil. Superman has a giant amount of muscles as do most if not all heroes. Its the norm for heros to have muslces and to look like they work out/are fit. Trying to make Kara look like the normal teenager girl with no muscles and bigger weight is an insult to fans and girls because its like saying we have to remove things she has to make you feel better about how you look in real life.

    No one in real life looks like superheroes its unrealistic to think otherwise, so the goal shouldn't be to make her as human, muscle free and normal as possible, as shes a superhero, whose an alien and not something a normal person could obtain.

    2. Shes definately not rail thin like some people exaggerrate. a lot of peole make it out to be like shes skinner than churchill actually had her being. She was thick enough to support the stomach muscles she had/should have and have more meet on her bones than most celebs who look/are fit do.

    3. I definately don't think the sexual part is as true as your trying to make it sound. Sure some issues had hints of it, but it was never upfront or over the top.



    Do me one small favor before commenting on this again, please go back and just skim to the part on the bridge(SG #10) with Kara/Casse and Gorilla grodd. Not only is it easy to tell by the costume they have whom is which, but their faces are wider(Cassie) and thinner(Kara) both with different hair styles. Cassie up and over to both sides and Kara combed over to one side.

    His Cassie and Kara were some of the best I have seen while together and he made them look much different.



    1. Renato's art was the WORST this title has seen, but luckily it was only three issues.

    2. I don't know where you grow your normal teenagers around where you live, but most of the teenagers that look like teenagers look like teenagers here and not late 30's early 40's age wise with skin and face textures. I mean theres teenagers that look a few years older than they are and then theres Renatos version of Kara.

    3. Yes she can be covered up and not have to flaut her looks to the world and still be confident, but even more so she can have decent looking clothes show a tiny bit of skin without flaunting her body and still have that same confidence in herself that she would if she covered up more. Its ridculous to say covering someone up more will give them more confidence in how they look if they don't mind showing skin due to how proud of the body they are.

    4. Go back and look at early panels of 20 and you'll see(hopefully as it is there) that her legs bend backwards at places they shouldn't and her ankles are as thick as her thighs.

    5. Drew Johnson is going to be amazing based on 23 preview and IMHo will bring the book back to where and started lacking when Garza took over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    A few points:

    1) I don’t recall ever saying that Kara doesn’t need stomach muscles and looks fine with out any. What I said is that Kara has well toned muscles, and does not need such drastic, hyper stylized ones.

    2) I checked out Supergirl #10, and believe me the moment you are referring to with Cassie and Kara on the bridge proves my point perfectly. In fact if it were not for the clothing I’d say they were twins. Their faces are identical! Merely having slightly different hair styles hardly makes Cassie and Kara look like distinct characters.
    1. The Churchill style muscles are not drastic though their normal for heroes.

    2. Go back and look at it again, Cassies eyes are tilted differently, her cheecks are higher and wider, her body is less muscled than kara. Plus the hair difference they pointed out. They don't look like twins at all and are completely different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    3) I hardly think it is an exaggeration to state that Churchill’s Kara is rail thin.
    I think its the biggest sillyest comment made by non churchill fans. Kara had more meat on her than Jessica Biel does(whom is probably one of the fittest, most healthy and decent waist sized actresses out there) before even putting the muscle on Kara.




    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    As well as the gratuitous up the skirt shots
    You mean the 3 we got from issue 1 to 19. Because Honestly we only saw her panties/up the skirt 3 times, twice in issue #1 with churchill and the third time with Garza in issue #19, the rest of the time all we see is leg.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    5) Guedes makes Kara like a teenager. Late 30s or early 40s??? I think that is a pretty gross overstatement! And what do you mean by bigger weight? Kara looks fit and healthy to me. She looks pretty much looks like many teenagers I have seen.
    Its not an overstatement her skin texture, facial features and body type make her look at least mid 30's with Renato. If thats what teenagers look like where you are from, the government should check out your water supply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    7) I’ll withhold judgment on Drew Johnson’s Supergirl until I see issue 23. From what I have seen of his work on Wonder Woman he seems to draw well. But really what is important to me is how Kara is going to be characterized by the new writer. Even if Johnson’s art is excellent it will not matter if Kara goes back to like she was before Mr. Bedard.
    I hope not only does the art go back to the way it was before Garza but Puckett takes supergirl from the chick flicky, backboneless, goody goody who worries about what superman thinks about her to the dark/edgy/original supergirl that made her interesting and didn't make her the superman in a skirt she is slowly and dangerously starting to become.



    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    Overall, to me Renato Guedes’ art is worth defending in forums like this. His art respects the character, and does not exploit her. He makes her look like a real teenager, and a genuine hero you can be proud of. And Mr. Bedard portrayed Kara with his words the way she should be!
    again we'll have to agree to disagree both on renato drawing her well and Bedard making supergirl the way she should have been. IMHO Supergirl has been going downhill as a character since the last half of issue #19.
    Last edited by Johnny_Luck; 10-06-2007 at 09:46 AM.

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    I truly enjoy agreeing to disagree with you!

    1) I donít need to go back to look at the identical twins. They will still be the same girl regardless of the time and place I see them. There is no difference in eyes, cheeks, or body.

    2) What does Jessica Biel have to do with Supergirl? She is not blonde nor am I aware of any upcoming Supergirl movie that is going to star her as the title role. Any way you look at it, bringing Miss Biel into this discussion is not relevant.

    3) Iíd say that even one up the skirt shot is plenty enough to provoke outrage from myself. Iím not sure where you are getting your numbers though. There are two that Iím aware of: once in issue # 13 and once in issue # 15. I donít own issue # 1 so Iíll have to take your word for it. Garza, however, never did any up the skirt shots. Iíll stay with my number of two. And Iíll not even take into account all the times Karaís cape shows the outlines of her posterior.

    4) Iíd hardly trust the current government to test the water supply. But that is a discussion appropriate for another time and place. But why bring up this at all? An insult such as this, and a poor one at that, does nothing to further this debate.

    5) Chick flicky is a sexist term that disrespects Kara, men and women in general. Kara as a character should appeal to women and men together. I mean this is Super Ö Girl we are talking about. Women should be able to relate this character. I know I can relate to his version of Kara. Kara has a backbone. She told Superman she does not need his validation, she performed many acts of courage, and she defeated some nasty villains. What may I ask is so terrible to you about seeing Kara kindhearted, bright, and optimistic? She certainly is not being a one note character because she can be serious. Also, Iím pretty tired of this ďSuperman in a skirtĒ thing. Supergirl and Superman already are different characters. There are subtle differences which I have already explained in a previous post. To repeat: Superman- by the books kind of guy who is so earnest. Supergirl- a teenager who is spirited and has a sense of adventure. There is no need to change Kara because she IS different! Kara being dark and edgy was interesting for a little bit, but now is the time to transition her to her TRUE self and nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_Luck View Post
    1. The Churchill style muscles are not drastic though their normal for heroes.

    2. Go back and look at it again, Cassies eyes are tilted differently, her cheecks are higher and wider, her body is less muscled than kara. Plus the hair difference they pointed out. They don't look like twins at all and are completely different.



    I think its the biggest sillyest comment made by non churchill fans. Kara had more meat on her than Jessica Biel does(whom is probably one of the fittest, most healthy and decent waist sized actresses out there) before even putting the muscle on Kara.






    You mean the 3 we got from issue 1 to 19. Because Honestly we only saw her panties/up the skirt 3 times, twice in issue #1 with churchill and the third time with Garza in issue #19, the rest of the time all we see is leg.



    Its not an overstatement her skin texture, facial features and body type make her look at least mid 30's with Renato. If thats what teenagers look like where you are from, the government should check out your water supply.



    I hope not only does the art go back to the way it was before Garza but Puckett takes supergirl from the chick flicky, backboneless, goody goody who worries about what superman thinks about her to the dark/edgy/original supergirl that made her interesting and didn't make her the superman in a skirt she is slowly and dangerously starting to become.





    again we'll have to agree to disagree both on renato drawing her well and Bedard making supergirl the way she should have been. IMHO Supergirl has been going downhill as a character since the last half of issue #19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    I truly enjoy agreeing to disagree with you!

    1) I don’t need to go back to look at the identical twins. They will still be the same girl regardless of the time and place I see them. There is no difference in eyes, cheeks, or body.
    Again if you actually look and ignore your previous built up beliefs their faces are completely different in many ways, as is their hair and waist size is different for Cassie and Kara too. That makes them far from Identical twins. In fact I love it when Churchill does both in the same panel as they look excellent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    2) What does Jessica Biel have to do with Supergirl? She is not blonde nor am I aware of any upcoming Supergirl movie that is going to star her as the title role. Any way you look at it, bringing Miss Biel into this discussion is not relevant.
    Biel has plenty of relevence in the arguement. Your claming that churchill draws her rail thin.

    I was pointing out that a actual human, whose toned, built, atheletic, very far from anorexic and cosidered by most people built for a woman has less meat on her than churchill's Kara that churchills kara was then obviously not rail thin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    3) I’d say that even one up the skirt shot is plenty enough to provoke outrage from myself. I’m not sure where you are getting your numbers though. There are two that I’m aware of: once in issue # 13 and once in issue # 15. I don’t own issue # 1 so I’ll have to take your word for it. Garza, however, never did any up the skirt shots. I’ll stay with my number of two. And I’ll not even take into account all the times Kara’s cape shows the outlines of her posterior.
    Again I went back a little bit ago and re-looked at every issue twice to count how many panty shots we got(cause people like you whom overexaggerate how many we have gotten) and Garza definately had 1 of 3 when he drew issue 19. The only other two panty shots were in issue #1. The only other time we have seen a tiny bit up the skirt we have seen nothing but the back of her thigh.

    and I agree Panty shots were not needed, but its not like we see her boobs and crotch all the time either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    5) Chick flicky is a sexist term that disrespects Kara, men and women in general. Kara as a character should appeal to women and men together. I mean this is Super … Girl we are talking about. Women should be able to relate this character. I know I can relate to his version of Kara.
    I am a 22 year old guy and own over 17 chick flicks on dvd, I not saying I don't like chick flicks. I am saying thats not how supergirl as a person/book should be. I don't see why women need her to be all candycanes and lollypops in order to relate to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    Kara has a backbone. She told Superman she does not need his validation, she performed many acts of courage, and she defeated some nasty villains. What may I ask is so terrible to you about seeing Kara kindhearted, bright, and optimistic? She certainly is not being a one note character because she can be serious.
    No she doesn't the fact she cried and ran to the kents being afraid of someone whose no better than she is because shes afraid of him and what he thinks proves that she lost it when Bedard took over. (when the actions in the first 17 issues would have said she wouldn't have cared how he felt at all and would have held strong and moved on)

    She was bright/smart before and she had friends in Boomer/Cassie and did the right thing when she needed to(she didn't go and patrol to find what to fix),and she didn't have to be super sweet about it.

    What does that last line mean? shes no more serious now than she was before.


    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    Also, I’m pretty tired of this “Superman in a skirt” thing. Supergirl and Superman already are different characters. There are subtle differences which I have already explained in a previous post. To repeat: Superman- by the books kind of guy who is so earnest. Supergirl- a teenager who is spirited and has a sense of adventure. There is no need to change Kara because she IS different! Kara being dark and edgy was interesting for a little bit, but now is the time to transition her to her TRUE self and nature.
    My point was she has slowly lost everything that made her different than superman, made her an original and entertaining character and is slowly becoming and doing everything exactly the way that superman would do it.

    If her true nature is walking grandmas across the street, patroling like clark and just doing good for the sake of being super nice to the world, I think I pass, for the exact same reason I passed on all the previously horrid and goody supergirls(and if this book cotinues down the road bedard put it on, my senses tell me it will be canceled just like the rest)

    Starting with issue 19 her and clarks interactions took and out of the blue made a unneeded 180 which has slowly ruined aspects that were really good about the character early on.
    Last edited by Johnny_Luck; 10-06-2007 at 06:49 PM.

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    There is very little else I can say on Churchillís identical twins. My beliefs came from my first viewing of the issue. I suspect we can continue this back and forth ďthey are differentĒ and ďthey are identical twinsĒ bit forever. Cassie and Kara look the same to me. End of story as far as Iím concerned.

    Miss Biel has more weight than Kara does. Kara is rail thin. And that is a very interesting word you use there ďmeatĒ. Is this how you see women? As sexual objects created solely for your viewing pleasure?

    Well, take a look again at your issues. Iím not sure what a panty shot looks like to you, but as far as Iím concerned it is any time you see a shot up the skirt. They exist in issues # 13 and issue # 15. What page or moment do you see this phantom panty shot in the Garza issues? Glad to hear you agree the panty shots are not needed. Finally, amazing how when I say that even one is too many that the two I know of is an over exaggeration. We agree they are not needed so why are you defending the presence of the two?

    What can I say? It is nice to hear about your collection of 17 or more chick flicks. But I donít recall saying you donít like them. When did I say this? By the way are there candy canes and lollypops in those movies of yours?

    Kara told Clark she does not need his validation. I hardly consider Bedardís portrayal of Kara to be ďsuper sweetĒ. She is not perfect, and she makes mistakes like anyone else. I like Kara to be a good person and be courageous. I donít mind her going to family to discuss problems.

    Iím glad to see Kara evolve out of being dark and edgy. Her true nature is to kick major villain ass, save the day, avoid pieces of crap like Power Boy, family, learning from her mistakes, being courageous, and being a good person. Kara being dark and edgy was interesting for a little bit, but keeping her static is unrealistic and boring to me. Any more Power Boy like relationships, lousy dialogue, stories that go nowhere satisfying, art that treats Kara like a sexual object rather than a person, being self centered, not thinking, moping around when she makes a mistake, and I would have dropped the title. Bedard and Guedes have improved Kara immeasurably


    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_Luck View Post
    Again if you actually look and ignore your previous built up beliefs their faces are completely different in many ways, as is their hair and waist size is different for Cassie and Kara too. That makes them far from Identical twins. In fact I love it when Churchill does both in the same panel as they look excellent.



    Biel has plenty of relevence in the arguement. Your claming that churchill draws her rail thin.

    I was pointing out that a actual human, whose toned, built, atheletic, very far from anorexic and cosidered by most people built for a woman has less meat on her than churchill's Kara that churchills kara was then obviously not rail thin.



    Again I went back a little bit ago and re-looked at every issue twice to count how many panty shots we got(cause people like you whom overexaggerate how many we have gotten) and Garza definately had 1 of 3 when he drew issue 19. The only other two panty shots were in issue #1. The only other time we have seen a tiny bit up the skirt we have seen nothing but the back of her thigh.

    and I agree Panty shots were not needed, but its not like we see her boobs and crotch all the time either.



    I am a 22 year old guy and own over 17 chick flicks on dvd, I not saying I don't like chick flicks. I am saying thats not how supergirl as a person/book should be. I don't see why women need her to be all candycanes and lollypops in order to relate to her.



    No she doesn't the fact she cried and ran to the kents being afraid of someone whose no better than she is because shes afraid of him and what he thinks proves that she lost it when Bedard took over. (when the actions in the first 17 issues would have said she wouldn't have cared how he felt at all and would have held strong and moved on)

    She was bright/smart before and she had friends in Boomer/Cassie and did the right thing when she needed to(she didn't go and patrol to find what to fix),and she didn't have to be super sweet about it.

    What does that last line mean? shes no more serious now than she was before.




    My point was she has slowly lost everything that made her different than superman, made her an original and entertaining character and is slowly becoming and doing everything exactly the way that superman would do it.

    If her true nature is walking grandmas across the street, patroling like clark and just doing good for the sake of being super nice to the world, I think I pass, for the exact same reason I passed on all the previously horrid and goody supergirls(and if this book cotinues down the road bedard put it on, my senses tell me it will be canceled just like the rest)

    Starting with issue 19 her and clarks interactions took and out of the blue made a unneeded 180 which has slowly ruined aspects that were really good about the character early on.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    There is very little else I can say on Churchill’s identical twins. My beliefs came from my first viewing of the issue. I suspect we can continue this back and forth “they are different” and “they are identical twins” bit forever. Cassie and Kara look the same to me. End of story as far as I’m concerned.
    First preception of things are the hardest to get over when proven wrong over time. Thats a sad fact of life. meet a person and judge them by how they look, they might be different, but its hard for the opinion to change. It looks like thats whats happening her with Kara/Cassie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    Miss Biel has more weight than Kara does. Kara is rail thin. And that is a very interesting word you use there “meat”. Is this how you see women? As sexual objects created solely for your viewing pleasure?
    1. I never said women were sex objects or pieces of meat and its claer from your first sentence you knew what I meant, but meat(weight/tone/build) so to insult me by taking a jab you know doesn't fly is a jerkish thing to do.

    2. Kara is not rail thin and I will fight that to the death. she does has more meat/tone than biel has and biel is healthy and just because shes not your type of art does not make that Rail thin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    Well, take a look again at your issues. I’m not sure what a panty shot looks like to you, but as far as I’m concerned it is any time you see a shot up the skirt. They exist in issues # 13 and issue # 15. What page or moment do you see this phantom panty shot in the Garza issues? Glad to hear you agree the panty shots are not needed. Finally, amazing how when I say that even one is too many that the two I know of is an over exaggeration. We agree they are not needed so why are you defending the presence of the two?
    Panty shots are shots up the skirt where you actually see the panties, you never see anything more than leg when you see up the skirt in 13 and 15 so they are not panty shots and its friggin leg so its no big deal. and have you actually gone back and looked at issue 19 cause me think your just going by what you believed in and haven't actually looked back at either SG 10 or 19 to see why your fighting things that you shouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    What can I say? It is nice to hear about your collection of 17 or more chick flicks. But I don’t recall saying you don’t like them. When did I say this? By the way are there candy canes and lollypops in those movies of yours?
    I love how you backtrack and try and cover yourself after you call me sexiest and I point out why I am not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    Kara told Clark she does not need his validation. I hardly consider Bedard’s portrayal of Kara to be “super sweet”. She is not perfect, and she makes mistakes like anyone else. I like Kara to be a good person and be courageous. I don’t mind her going to family to discuss problems.
    Kara shouldn't have had to feel like she needed to tell clark that she was okay without him. The Kara in supergirl 1-17 wouldn't have given a care to what clark thinks or does as she stays away from him and thats why her crying for being afraid of a man she didn't care how he felt, going to kents to see what she could do to make it better was a sudden a shock change that felt like an insult to us fans. The change that was uneeded and out of left field. It basically was a slap in the face to every bit of development the character has shown previously in this run and the fans whom enjoyed it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    I’m glad to see Kara evolve out of being dark and edgy. Her true nature is to kick major villain ass, save the day, avoid pieces of crap like Power Boy, family, learning from her mistakes, being courageous, and being a good person. Kara being dark and edgy was interesting for a little bit, but keeping her static is unrealistic and boring to me. Any more Power Boy like relationships, lousy dialogue, stories that go nowhere satisfying, art that treats Kara like a sexual object rather than a person, being self centered, not thinking, moping around when she makes a mistake, and I would have dropped the title. Bedard and Guedes have improved Kara immeasurably
    She can just as easily kick major butt villain wise, save the day, have friends like the titans, Casse, Boomer, learn from her mistakes, and be a good person without worrying about how other people think she should act cause of the S, or living up to its name, being super sweet and nice, being lovey dovey all the time and never being in a bad mood, and have some dark and edgy fights/character times)

    Bedard take was completely out of left field compared to how the good Kara(Not the B&B and Legion crap) the good character kara we had in the first 17 issues that only lacked good finished stories and rogues and didnt have any character issues that needed changing. which is why it bugged me when he decided to alienate all the good that the book ever had going for it by removing her self cofidence in herself, Making her do things she normall wouldn't do and making her rely more on a lesser man and his family he used while growing up, while keeping the bad which was the stories he had to tell being so so non important/confusing to non countdown fans,etc.

    Like I have said elsewhere this direction that Tony has taken SG into to fit his idea of family and girl friendly supergirl is the same direction that got all the other previous supergirl books cancaled. Its been done and a completely unoriginal take on supergirl which is why I might have to drop the book soon since 17ish its sort of lost all that made it original.different enjoyable.
    Last edited by Johnny_Luck; 10-08-2007 at 08:09 AM.

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    Wow, you are one arrogant little person. I hardly have been proven wrong about the sameness of Cassie and Kara in Churchillís art. You have your opinion and I have mine. Naturally, Iím going to trust MY eyes and judgment over yours. You have not proven your case that Cassie and Kara are different. Maybe in your world you have, but not in mine.

    It is very difficult to know what you mean. Your awful prose is riddled with mistakes that barely make it understandable to me. That is not to say I have never made a mistake in this forum, but I try to keep the errors to a minimum. The use of the words weight, tone, build, and mass are far better words to describe a person rather than meat. Iíll stand by my words. That ďclaerĒ enough for you? Use spell check. And you have forgotten who insulted who first in this debate. You insulted me with that cute little water supply comment of yours. So, I insulted you back with a perfectly legitimate cute comment of my own. Childish I know, but I can admit it.

    How can you consider issues 13 and 15 not to be panty shots? You see her legs AND the slice of blue clothing between her legs. So, where is the panty shot in issue 19?

    I did not backpedal on calling your chick flick comment sexist. What Iím trying to ascertain is what constitutes ďchick flickĒ for you. What makes those 17 or so movies chick flicks? Does Bedardís Supergirl have a higher or lower degree of what you define as having the quality of being a chick flick? Finally, if you like those 17 or so chick flick movies why canít you enjoy Bedardís Supergirl?

    You will fight to the death that Kara is not rail thin? Wow, comic books are so important and worth dying over! I can think of more pressing concerns then comic book matters. Comic books are fun and thought provoking reading material, but they are hardly worth getting so militant over them like you do.

    Finally, Bedardís work on Supergirl is family, female, and male friendly. Clearly, you donít like it so go read something else. Comic books change all the time, and it really depends on the individual reader as to whether that change is a good one or a bad one. I look forward to seeing how Bedardís change evolves in future issues. I have been willing to stick with Kara through the worst issues of this Supergirl run (issue 6 to issue 9, and then issue 11 to issue 19). And Iíll keep sticking around with the hope that the future creators will continue Bedardís portrayal while making it their own work. I am only one reader and I donít expect the comic book creators to cater to my every whim. All I can do is keep on reading Karaís adventures, and hope for the best. My intention in this forum is to thank Mr. Bedard for his work on Supergirl, and I have done that. His portrayal of Kara is excellent in my opinion, and worth taking the time to praise. When somebody does something great in comics they deserve that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_Luck View Post
    First preception of things are the hardest to get over when proven wrong over time. Thats a sad fact of life. meet a person and judge them by how they look, they might be different, but its hard for the opinion to change. It looks like thats whats happening her with Kara/Cassie.



    1. I never said women were sex objects or pieces of meat and its claer from your first sentence you knew what I meant, but meat(weight/tone/build) so to insult me by taking a jab you know doesn't fly is a jerkish thing to do.

    2. Kara is not rail thin and I will fight that to the death. she does has more meat/tone than biel has and biel is healthy and just because shes not your type of art does not make that Rail thin.



    Panty shots are shots up the skirt where you actually see the panties, you never see anything more than leg when you see up the skirt in 13 and 15 so they are not panty shots and its friggin leg so its no big deal. and have you actually gone back and looked at issue 19 cause me think your just going by what you believed in and haven't actually looked back at either SG 10 or 19 to see why your fighting things that you shouldn't.

    I love how you backtrack and try and cover yourself after you call me sexiest and I point out why I am not.



    Kara shouldn't have had to feel like she needed to tell clark that she was okay without him. The Kara in supergirl 1-17 wouldn't have given a care to what clark thinks or does as she stays away from him and thats why her crying for being afraid of a man she didn't care how he felt, going to kents to see what she could do to make it better was a sudden a shock change that felt like an insult to us fans. The change that was uneeded and out of left field. It basically was a slap in the face to every bit of development the character has shown previously in this run and the fans whom enjoyed it.




    She can just as easily kick major butt villain wise, save the day, have friends like the titans, Casse, Boomer, learn from her mistakes, and be a good person without worrying about how other people think she should act cause of the S, or living up to its name, being super sweet and nice, being lovey dovey all the time and never being in a bad mood, and have some dark and edgy fights/character times)

    Bedard take was completely out of left field compared to how the good Kara(Not the B&B and Legion crap) the good character kara we had in the first 17 issues that only lacked good finished stories and rogues and didnt have any character issues that needed changing. which is why it bugged me when he decided to alienate all the good that the book ever had going for it by removing her self cofidence in herself, Making her do things she normall wouldn't do and making her rely more on a lesser man and his family he used while growing up, while keeping the bad which was the stories he had to tell being so so non important/confusing to non countdown fans,etc.

    Like I have said elsewhere this direction that Tony has taken SG into to fit his idea of family and girl friendly supergirl is the same direction that got all the other previous supergirl books cancaled. Its been done and a completely unoriginal take on supergirl which is why I might have to drop the book soon since 17ish its sort of lost all that made it original.different enjoyable.

  12. #12
    Moderator Tony Bedard's Avatar
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    You guys both rock!



    So does Jessica Biel.



    And so does Renato Guedes. I'd work with him again in a heartbeat!
    Visit the RETRO ROCKET homepage!
    http://www.jasonorfalas.com/retrorocket.htm

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    Wow, you are one arrogant little person. I hardly have been proven wrong about the sameness of Cassie and Kara in Churchill’s art. You have your opinion and I have mine. Naturally, I’m going to trust MY eyes and judgment over yours. You have not proven your case that Cassie and Kara are different. Maybe in your world you have, but not in mine.
    Never once said you were prove wrong, just your habit with judging them are common with that type of situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    And you have forgotten who insulted who first in this debate. You insulted me with that cute little water supply comment of yours. So, I insulted you back with a perfectly legitimate cute comment of my own. Childish I know, but I can admit it.
    I never actually insulted you with that comment though if you look at it. Your simply taking it as one when it wasn't. I simple made a point/joke that if the teenagers in your area normally were looking like 40 year old instead of teenagers that maybe there was something in the water to make it so. You took it from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    How can you consider issues 13 and 15 not to be panty shots? You see her legs AND the slice of blue clothing between her legs. So, where is the panty shot in issue 19?
    again Its only legs in skirt from what I saw in 13 and 15 after rechecking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    I did not backpedal on calling your chick flick comment sexist. What I’m trying to ascertain is what constitutes “chick flick” for you. What makes those 17 or so movies chick flicks? Does Bedard’s Supergirl have a higher or lower degree of what you define as having the quality of being a chick flick? Finally, if you like those 17 or so chick flick movies why can’t you enjoy Bedard’s Supergirl?
    1. One love story, super sweet, and a type of movie a girl would normally watch over a guy(not being sexiest either, there are type of movies girls watch more than guys and guys watch more than girls) the kind that try and make you sad, and happy while crying a lot.

    2. Because supergirl shouldn't be chick flick like thats not whom she is or at least not whom she should be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Girl of Steel Fan View Post
    Finally, Bedard’s work on Supergirl is family, female, and male friendly. Clearly, you don’t like it so go read something else. Comic books change all the time, and it really depends on the individual reader as to whether that change is a good one or a bad one. I look forward to seeing how Bedard’s change evolves in future issues. I have been willing to stick with Kara through the worst issues of this Supergirl run (issue 6 to issue 9, and then issue 11 to issue 19).
    See this is where we differ in almost everything.

    1. Your the one being arrogant if you think that all the fans who liked and stuck with the book for liking the character should just go away and find another book if they don't like the complete out of the blue and not so good changes. I mean we have a right to wanting to read a character we enjoy just as much as you do.

    2. Bedards take is less guy friendly and more daughter mother friendly.

    3. Issues 6 through 8 were the best thing this book has had to date and were great art and character wise, but lacked clourse and clear storytelling. Issues 13-16 were pretty darn good as well. So we definately differ one what makes good supergirl. You like super cute, saves the day while being bubbly about it who worries about how people feel about what she does. I like dark/edgy and kick butt and take names supergirl that knows shes good and doesn't need to have the kents or superman reassure her of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Bedard View Post
    You guys both rock!



    So does Jessica Biel.



    And so does Renato Guedes. I'd work with him again in a heartbeat!
    Thanks, I guess you have a right to like his work, but its more fitting for GI Joe style comic book with the way those character are meant to be drawn than supergirl or any superhero IMHO.

    I would have much perfered if someone like Paulo Siqueira had reteamed with you for your three issues as his art IMHO would have been more fitting and you two worked well together on the BC mini.
    Last edited by Johnny_Luck; 10-09-2007 at 05:34 AM.

  14. #14
    New Member Girl of Steel Fan's Avatar
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    Thank You Mr. Bedard! I truly enjoyed your work on Supergirl, and I hope sometime in the future you will write for the character again. Also, I'd love to see you and Renato Guedes team up again! You both really complement each others style and work!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Bedard View Post
    You guys both rock!



    So does Jessica Biel.



    And so does Renato Guedes. I'd work with him again in a heartbeat!

  15. #15
    New Member Girl of Steel Fan's Avatar
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    I really canít make my opinion about the sameness of Cassie and Kara in Churchillís art any clearer. I came to my conclusion about this topic after viewing the issue after I bought it. Whenever I re-read the issue I see Cassie and Kara as identical twins. Iím perfectly capable of changing my mind about issues like this, but I need evidence and facts to change my opinion. Iíve heard your opinion, but it does not change mine.

    It sure sounded like an insult to me. My perception after reading your comment a few times was that you thought the only way I could view teenagers as looking like Guedesí art is if I drank drugged water or was on drugs. Now if you stated something like ďIf that is what teenagers look like where you are from then the government should check out the water THEY are drinkingĒ I could see that as not an insult towards me. Your belligerent tone and attitude further added to my perception of your statement as an insult to me. I can see you know what you intended to say, but my perception of your words is all I have to go on. This is an imperfect method to communicate.

    I donít rely upon gender stereotypes as to whether a movie is meant for women or men. Good characters and plots are all that matter to me. Bedardís Supergirl stories in my opinion are not love stories, are not ďsuper sweetĒ, and they donít ďmake you sad and happy while crying a lotĒ. If this is your broad definition of ďchick flickĒ then I donít see how you can apply it towards Bedardís Supergirl.

    Iím not being arrogant when I say YOU should go read something else if YOU donít like Bedardís Supergirl. You are the only other person to whom Iím speaking to here about Supergirl besides Mr. Bedard. Also, I donít recall saying you donít have a right to read a character you enjoy just as much as I do. All Iím saying is that you donít appear to like Bedardís portrayal of Supergirl. Now I have stuck with Kara through some pretty bad issues so I think maybe it is your turn to read some issues that in your opinion are bad. The creators are pretty much in control of Karaís portrayal, and I have praised Bedardís work. Iíd love it if my words help encourage future creators to continue Bedardís portrayal, but the creators do not cater to my preferences. They have to consider a broad group of readers. Hopefully far into the future Iíll be the one who is still enjoying reading the adventures of the Girl of Steel. You can do whatever you want I really donít care.

    Finally, I forgot to add the whole Kara must kill Superman story line to my list of what I consider to be awful.


    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_Luck View Post
    Never once said you were prove wrong, just your habit with judging them are common with that type of situation.



    I never actually insulted you with that comment though if you look at it. Your simply taking it as one when it wasn't. I simple made a point/joke that if the teenagers in your area normally were looking like 40 year old instead of teenagers that maybe there was something in the water to make it so. You took it from there.

    again Its only legs in skirt from what I saw in 13 and 15 after rechecking.



    1. One love story, super sweet, and a type of movie a girl would normally watch over a guy(not being sexiest either, there are type of movies girls watch more than guys and guys watch more than girls) the kind that try and make you sad, and happy while crying a lot.

    2. Because supergirl shouldn't be chick flick like thats not whom she is or at least not whom she should be.




    See this is where we differ in almost everything.

    1. Your the one being arrogant if you think that all the fans who liked and stuck with the book for liking the character should just go away and find another book if they don't like the complete out of the blue and not so good changes. I mean we have a right to wanting to read a character we enjoy just as much as you do.

    2. Bedards take is less guy friendly and more daughter mother friendly.

    3. Issues 6 through 8 were the best thing this book has had to date and were great art and character wise, but lacked clourse and clear storytelling. Issues 13-16 were pretty darn good as well. So we definately differ one what makes good supergirl. You like super cute, saves the day while being bubbly about it who worries about how people feel about what she does. I like dark/edgy and kick butt and take names supergirl that knows shes good and doesn't need to have the kents or superman reassure her of it.



    Thanks, I guess you have a right to like his work, but its more fitting for GI Joe style comic book with the way those character are meant to be drawn than supergirl or any superhero IMHO.

    I would have much perfered if someone like Paulo Siqueira had reteamed with you for your three issues as his art IMHO would have been more fitting and you two worked well together on the BC mini.

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