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  1. #3376
    Red Knight MKTerra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    See, this is what makes me scratch my head. Yeah, the guy brings out a vulnerable side of her.

    I don't really mind.

    I mean, people are people. We all have an utterly vulnerable side, even if we are totally awesome badasses (Best fictional example = Guts). If anything it allows me enjoy Ezra more as a character. The idea of that making her less respectable really does leave me scratching my head (well, more like tilting it to the side while looking at the computer screen but you get the idea). Mileage obviously varies on this.
    I think her arc was great for character development, but that Gerard probably should've stayed dead so Erza could move on with her life. It was her defining struggle for 8 years, let her put it to rest and turn toward the future*. But, now she's stuck on Gerard drama forever, and so are we. Some people aren't happy about that, especially if they hated Gerard to begin with.

    *: By contrast, Nami was able to put Arlong behind her and pursue her mapmaking dreams because he stayed down and out after her arc. (Aside from some story links during Fishman Island, but not too much was made of that, as far as it concerned her.)
    Last edited by MKTerra; 05-05-2012 at 03:32 PM.
    Soap Operus

    "Gendou is probably the least whiny, but... well, let's just say that his reaction was probably not quite as healthy as a good whine."
    -The Drunkard Kid, on Evangelion

  2. #3377
    Red Knight MKTerra's Avatar
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    Getting back to Lucy, I don't mind Leo too much. It was a bit lucky and happened kinda quickly, but you could still say she earned it by her actions.

    I do mind her getting the next three keys just for losing and then begging nicely. It's like a consolation prize = 3 winning prizes, and makes a mockery of the effort, cleverness, and resourcefulness she put into getting the previous three. Plus it bumped her from 1/2 the Zodiac up to 3/4, making it hard for her to look like the underdog in any SS duels going forward.

    Ideally she should've suffered through the loss (possibly giving up a key or two), escaped (or be saved), and won a rematch later. Now we're out of chances to do that kind of plot, unless some badass SS mage out there wants to pwn Lucy using only silver keys.
    Soap Operus

    "Gendou is probably the least whiny, but... well, let's just say that his reaction was probably not quite as healthy as a good whine."
    -The Drunkard Kid, on Evangelion

  3. #3378
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    I'd rather have Gerard face those he's hurt in the past. It would be interesting character development for him.

    Plus I want to see if Jellal can use some new techniques. I've never seen Edolas Jellal use that much of his magic( At least none that would earn him S rank). But maybe through this Jellal, I will.


    Also, I think he should continue his life as Mystogan. That way he can start things anew.
    Sometimes you lose things which you don't expect losing. It doesn't make the hurt any less.

  4. #3379
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKTerra View Post
    Getting back to Lucy, I don't mind Leo too much. It was a bit lucky and happened kinda quickly, but you could still say she earned it by her actions.
    Damn straight she earned it. She noticed him acting weird, did some investigation, figured out where he was, impressed the spirit king so much with her sheer determination (which drained her energies completely) that he changed the rules and left her in charge of Loke. Luck had shit all to do with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by MKTerra View Post
    I do mind her getting the next three keys just for losing and then begging nicely. It's like a consolation prize = 3 winning prizes, and makes a mockery of the effort, cleverness, and resourcefulness she put into getting the previous three. Plus it bumped her from 1/2 the Zodiac up to 3/4, making it hard for her to look like the underdog in any SS duels going forward.
    Actually the begging failed and she ended up fragging the crap out of Angel with Urano Meteoria. Yeah, Hibiki gave it to her but I count that as a team-effort. It's was just so that Angel's keys fit Lucy's magic more than Hibiki.
    Quote Originally Posted by MKTerra View Post
    Ideally she should've suffered through the loss (possibly giving up a key or two), escaped (or be saved), and won a rematch later. Now we're out of chances to do that kind of plot, unless some badass SS mage out there wants to pwn Lucy using only silver keys.
    Ten bucks says that there's probably something higher up than the gold keys. Like, diamond keys or something like that.

  5. #3380
    Cruel and Unusual Sound Silence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Damn straight she earned it. She noticed him acting weird, did some investigation, figured out where he was, impressed the spirit king so much with her sheer determination (which drained her energies completely) that he changed the rules and left her in charge of Loke. Luck had shit all to do with it.
    Actually the begging failed and she ended up fragging the crap out of Angel with Urano Meteoria. Yeah, Hibiki gave it to her but I count that as a team-effort. It's was just so that Angel's keys fit Lucy's magic more than Hibiki.
    Ten bucks says that there's probably something higher up than the gold keys. Like, diamond keys or something like that.
    Well, something has to let you summon the King, at the very least.

  6. #3381
    Red Knight MKTerra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Actually the begging failed and she ended up fragging the crap out of Angel with Urano Meteoria. Yeah, Hibiki gave it to her but I count that as a team-effort. It's was just so that Angel's keys fit Lucy's magic more than Hibiki.
    The begging was key because it got Gemini (and possibly Caelum) onto her side unofficially, and saved Hibiki's sanity, which he then awarded with Uranometria for the win. It was all a bit too lucky and (dare I say) unrealistic for me.

    Ten bucks says that there's probably something higher up than the gold keys. Like, diamond keys or something like that.
    Hooo boy
    Soap Operus

    "Gendou is probably the least whiny, but... well, let's just say that his reaction was probably not quite as healthy as a good whine."
    -The Drunkard Kid, on Evangelion

  7. #3382
    CBR Dark Tourny Master Robotech Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKTerra View Post
    The begging was key because it got Gemini (and possibly Caelum) onto her side unofficially, and saved Hibiki's sanity, which he then awarded with Uranometria for the win. It was all a bit too lucky and (dare I say) unrealistic for me.
    Though I do not recall every detail, I walked away from that scene merely with the understanding that Lucy had demonstrated that she valued the happiness and well-being of the spirits enough to put them ahead of her own, juxtaposed with Angel being a cruel master. Gemini and the others were affected by her feelings, because they had never or rarely encountered a master who felt that way about them.

    She didn't have to "earn" them through trial: she gained their loyalty by showing that she was a better master than Angel. Considering how Angel was characterized, I don't think a lot of luck was involved in them saying "man, I wish I was with her instead of this bitch."
    "It's your parting gift. In that it will part you; part of you over here, part of you over there, part of you way over there, staining the wall!" Lord Shen

  8. #3383
    Red Knight MKTerra's Avatar
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    Ehh, I guess that's the idea, but it was undercut by Gemini seemingly enjoying her job with no qualms up till that moment (e.g. gleefully kicking Lucy around). Made it feel too out-of-nowhere and "oh, come on!". Maybe if Nirvana had explicitly messed with Gemini's head... but that has Unfortunate Implications in another way. (Yuck, did I just blurt a TVTropes term?)

    And then Hibiki took it another step by downloading Urano Ex Machina into her head for the insta-win :/

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    I'm just happy that there are still people that haven't forgiven the guy for all that slavery and killing people business and are actually mad about it.
    OTOH, that unforgiveness has to be resolved one way or another, and you might not like the outcome and/or execution*. That's what I'm really dreading here.

    *: Unless it's a literal execution! But wait, that just invites an awkward rescue arc. Nevermind!
    Last edited by MKTerra; 05-07-2012 at 01:05 AM.
    Soap Operus

    "Gendou is probably the least whiny, but... well, let's just say that his reaction was probably not quite as healthy as a good whine."
    -The Drunkard Kid, on Evangelion

  9. #3384
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKTerra View Post
    Ehh, I guess that's the idea, but it was undercut by Gemini seemingly enjoying her job with no qualms up till that moment (e.g. gleefully kicking Lucy around). Made it feel too out-of-nowhere and "oh, come on!".
    Well... there's that bit about how some stellar spirits take on the characteristics of their masters, Virgo's apperance while under Duke Evar. Maybe Gemini had adopted some of Angel's saddistic bitch tendencies and those got overridden when Lucy showed her kindness and love for stellar spirits, made easier for them to sense since they were in Lucy-mode at the time.

    Yeah, nothing like that is stated but I like it as an explanation.
    Quote Originally Posted by MKTerra View Post
    Maybe if Nirvana had explicitly messed with Gemini's head... but that has Unfortunate Implications in another way. (Yuck, did I just blurt a TVTropes term?)
    What unfortunate implications? And what's wrong with using TvTropes terms?
    Quote Originally Posted by MKTerra View Post
    And then Hibiki took it another step by downloading Urano Ex Machina into her head for the insta-win :/
    Meh. Just another way to bequeath a person with a magic power. And it's not like Hibiki was gonna do anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by MKTerra View Post
    OTOH, that unforgiveness has to be resolved one way or another, and you might not like the outcome and/or execution*. That's what I'm really dreading here.
    Fair point. In whatever way this ends Mashima is going to try to convince us that Jellal is a great guy.

  10. #3385
    CBR Dark Tourny Master Robotech Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Fair point. In whatever way this ends Mashima is going to try to convince us that Jellal is a great guy.
    Actually, I'd like to know what some reader's beef is with Jeral on an in-story basis. I understand that he needs to own up to the things he did, but he was manipulated into that persona by Ultear, and now that manipulation on his mind is absent.

    Honestly, if *anyone* should be getting a 'forgiven too easily' label, it's Ultear. She sent all the events in motion, had a direct hand in Jeral's attempted disaster, caused actual successful disasters of her own (Wiped out cities, etc), and after getting some sense beaten into her by Gray and being calmed by the spirit and true memories of her mother, basically just apologizes to Meldy for killing everyone she knew, then tries to kill herself, but Meldy rescues and forgives her. I'd say she has far more to make up for.
    "It's your parting gift. In that it will part you; part of you over here, part of you over there, part of you way over there, staining the wall!" Lord Shen

  11. #3386
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    I'm kinda curious also as to why people (as in readers, not characters) consider Jellal a bad person.
    (I can get why people consider him a bad character, but not person.)

    Because basically the only bad thing he did while in his right mind is blasting Natsu that one time. And even then he had amnesia.

    Everything else we've seen him do while not mindscrewed has been downright heroic, if a bit suicidal.

    Found Nirvana - tried to blow it up because he knew it was dangerous. Then tried to blow himself up to prevent anyone from getting him to stop Nirvana's destruction.
    Learned what he'd done - Went out to help Natsu, took a direct hit from Zero while already injured in the process.
    Got arrested - Didn't do anything to resist.
    Got busted out of jail - Started going after dark guilds.

    Basically, I don't get how you can say that he's running away from what he's done or isn't paying for it. Aside from the incredibly awkward romance with Erza, he has literally not done a single thing onscreen that wasn't an attempt to make up for the things he did while mindscrewed.
    Suffering is a fact of life. You survive if you find a reason to endure it.

  12. #3387
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotech Master View Post
    Honestly, if *anyone* should be getting a 'forgiven too easily' label, it's Ultear. She sent all the events in motion, had a direct hand in Jeral's attempted disaster, caused actual successful disasters of her own (Wiped out cities, etc), and after getting some sense beaten into her by Gray and being calmed by the spirit and true memories of her mother, basically just apologizes to Meldy for killing everyone she knew, then tries to kill herself, but Meldy rescues and forgives her. I'd say she has far more to make up for.
    Personally the cats annoy me more. Yeah, their city got destroyed, and they are in another world, but it annoys me, especially how they got switched into victims mid way through the arc.

  13. #3388
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
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    I will admit that I am biased against Jellal and that I do tend to condemn him too harshly for stuff he did while mind-controlled. It comes from basically not wanting him around. I find him incredibly boring, kind of poorly written and I don't think that he really adds anything to the story.

    That said. RM is right that we should really be condemning Ultear. Bitch needs to be in jail.

  14. #3389
    Red Knight MKTerra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    What unfortunate implications?
    Questions of free will that Hoteye/Richard already stepped into, I suppose: When Nirvana turns a good guy evil, they're considered not in their right minds until it wears off (and there's a visible "ghost leaving the body" effect when it wears off). But when it turns a bad guy good, the wear-off issue doesn't come up, and that's that. Yay?

    And what's wrong with using TvTropes terms?
    I sort of want to say "Who died and made them king of pop-culture lingo?" But that's not quite valid since it's king by popular demand and participation (being a wiki and all). Sometimes I just resent seeing unfamiliar labels being pinned on characters/events/etc in online discussions, or how trope-spotting has become a kind of pastime. IIRC TVTropes has a page on this titled "TVTropes will ruin your life", because after a while you (or people around you) can't stop mentally disassembling entertainment into its component tropes and ruining the magic.

    And it's not like Hibiki was gonna do anything else.
    Ouch!

    Regarding Gerard, there's a notable difference between the anime and manga here. The anime explicitly shows him being magically brainscrewed and possessed by "Zeref" like so:



    So he was clearly a victim there.

    In the manga, OTOH, it looked like "Zeref" just talked Gerard into it. That makes him alot more responsible for everything, even if he was an impressionable (read: stupid) kid at the time.
    Soap Operus

    "Gendou is probably the least whiny, but... well, let's just say that his reaction was probably not quite as healthy as a good whine."
    -The Drunkard Kid, on Evangelion

  15. #3390
    CBR Dark Tourny Master Robotech Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKTerra View Post

    In the manga, OTOH, it looked like "Zeref" just talked Gerard into it. That makes him alot more responsible for everything, even if he was an impressionable (read: stupid) kid at the time.
    When the anime fills in explanations for things that Mashima seemingly forgot to include, I just take it as canon. Sort of like how Gajeel being actually shown traveling through Edoras in secret, getting information from his Edoras self, and being shown attacking one of the Lacrima locations and freeing some people is how I canonically remember the Edoras arc. You know, instead of Erza and Gray showing up and saying "dude, a whole *shit ton* of stuff just happened off screen so we could be here to rescue you."
    "It's your parting gift. In that it will part you; part of you over here, part of you over there, part of you way over there, staining the wall!" Lord Shen

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