What is DC doing wrong? How can it be fixed?

[Raker616]

And I don't, see I get why people would be upset over a needlesly gory bs that was Cry For Justice. But complaining about the violence in BD is something that I don't get, I never see people complaining about how drama's are too violent or action movies are too gory. Yet somehow anytime someone gets killed off in a comic some fans turn into prudes and are shocked by it. Seriously what is the deal here?, the heroes today are dealing with big time threats showing how powerfull they are is essential and needed. Just like when bad stuff happens no 24, bad stuff happens in the DCU there is no difference if you have that much problem with comic book violence you might want to find another hobby. Because for all of my complaints about DC the gore aspects isn't high on the list as long as it makes sense storywise it's fine only when it's done for shock to give reason to bs like CFJ do I get bothered by it.

[AaronJ]

Hold on. I think I can bridge the gap in communications here.

People haven't given upon wanting to read stories about iconic superheroes such as Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, and Flash. They just don't like the flavor and tone of the current batch of stories, or the trend that that flavor and tone appear to suggest.

Superman: Where's the "torture porn" in that set of books?

Batman: Anyone here reading Batman & Robin, Batgirl, Red Robin, Detective?

Green Lantern: Come on now. For 5 years+, that series has been almost pure gold.

Flash: Looks pretty damned good to me right now. And to a lot of others.

[Ned McDodd]

I think both DC and Marvel make the mistake of confusing "mature and adult" with "death and rape." I enjoy the former, but all too often see the latter.

i agree. But this way DC looks pretty immature imo.

It sounds more like "Look everybody ! We have rape in our comics ! Tons of rape and death ! Look how cool we are and how mature our comics."

I mean honestly which attention they really wanna get here with that ? Sometimes i wonder if some writers don't know how to write a mature story and instead try to underline this fact with rape and all the other stuff.

Of course this is only true for some comics from DC at the moment ad not a general rule. Still i don't like this direction at all. Reminds me of Fox News.

[Pól Rua]

Sorry, its just not the same. There are many good pizza makers. But there is only one Superman. Period.

So what? Buy trades. Buy Showcase Volumes. Buy DVD copies of the Kirk Alyn serial, the George Reeves TV series, the Chris Reeve movies. Buy DVDs of the various cartoons over the years. Buy blankets, underoos, thermoses, action figures, t-shirts, lunchboxes...

You're wrong. There's more than one Superman. And if you want to put your money behind a character (for whatever reason), there's lots of ways to do it besides buying stuff you hate.

"I see by the sales figures that we're selling plenty of Superman stuff, but the comic's not doing so well."
"Hrm, Dan, well, maybe it's because people like the character, but hate the comics. I wonder why that could be."

As to BA's contention that they'll kill the character. It's not going to happen. DC has the intellectual property rights. They will continue to publish comics called Superman, Green Lantern, Flash and Wonder Woman.
They're not going to just give that up.
And the simple fact is, you have ONE WAY to let DC know what you want, and that's with your wallet.

If you keep buying crap you hate, you're telling DC that's what you want.
More of that, please.

[Pól Rua]

I think both DC and Marvel make the mistake of confusing "mature and adult" with "death and rape." I enjoy the former, but all too often see the latter.

Yup. It's definitely a 14 year old's idea of what's 'mature'.
Knee-jerk reactionary faux-cynicism, pessimism and hate. It's like DC's turned into a black-clad teenager who's just heard his first 'Rage Against The Machine' song, then proceeded to lock himself in his room and play the same track on repeat forever.

[TonyStark1012]

And I don't, see I get why people would be upset over a needlesly gory bs that was Cry For Justice. But complaining about the violence in BD is something that I don't get, I never see people complaining about how drama's are too violent or action movies are too gory. Yet somehow anytime someone gets killed off in a comic some fans turn into prudes and are shocked by it. Seriously what is the deal here?, the heroes today are dealing with big time threats showing how powerfull they are is essential and needed. Just like when bad stuff happens no 24, bad stuff happens in the DCU there is no difference if you have that much problem with comic book violence you might want to find another hobby. Because for all of my complaints about DC the gore aspects isn't high on the list as long as it makes sense storywise it's fine only when it's done for shock to give reason to bs like CFJ do I get bothered by it.

I agree with you on some of your points. I have no problem with violence in comics. Hell I've got every issue ever of Punisher Max, but I do think that DC is more violent now then it used to be. Me personally I have no problem with it.

[Kiryu]

So... stop reading DC comics. Stop reading Marvel Comics.
Take a look around the shelves of your local comic shop. See if there's anything else outside the spandex ghetto that floats your boat.
Because there are a LOT of good, fun, slam-bang adventure titles on the shelves that aren't being produced by Marvel or DC.

Oh I do, believe me.

[LunarMoon]

I think the biggest problem with DC is that it isn't exactly new reader friendly. Something like the recent JLA/ JSA crossover, The Lightning Saga, clearly illustrates a universe with a complicated back-story that makes it difficult for new readers to penetrate.

Would you honestly say that your average Marvel Zombie is going to have such a nuanced opinion? The majority of people who read Marvel without reading anything else, be it DC or Dark Horse, only obtain their information about DC from the movies and video games. That’s why a lot of people who only read Marvel think that Batman and Superman are the only properties; because they’re the only DC properties with somewhat decent movie releases within the last few years.

It certaintly isn’t the gore, by the way, as most people who only read Marvel tend to characterize DC as being lighthearted, optimistic, and gore-free. When people think of DC they immediately think of the Superfriends and DC hasn’t taken anywhere near enough steps to change that perception.

Note: I think a lot of people are showing their age with the focus on continuity. It isn’t like it was 30 years ago when the majority of TV shows were sitcoms with loosely connected episodes. Even something as mindless as the Bachelor, or any other reality show, requires you to pay attention to continuity these days. It’s the status quo and the absence of continuity is going to be a lot more confusing than its presence. Long story short, DC needs to increase its media presence and put half as much work into the Justice League build-up as Marvel is putting into the Avengers Assemble universe. The majority of people these days get into comics through movie, video game, and cartoon adaptations.

I don't think it the amount of exposure matters really. Let's face it, it's the hardcore fans who likes big crossovers and has to buy every issues, including "red sky" ones, that drive the market these days.

It drives the DC market, yes, which is why it's dwindling. Marvel's market is made up of far more younger, casual fans, which is why it's not. You can't build a successful publishing business off of aging, 40 year old fanboys.

[zenbullet]

Would you honestly say that your average Marvel Zombie is going to have such a nuanced opinion? The majority of people who read Marvel without reading anything else, be it DC or Dark Horse, only obtain their information about DC from the movies and video games. That’s why a lot of people who only read Marvel think that Batman and Superman are the only properties; because they’re the only DC properties with somewhat decent movie releases within the last few years.

I think you are refering to casual collectors, not Zombies, since a Marvel Fanatic would do the same thing you would do if you were interested in a universe you weren't familiar with, go on a board, or read the wiki.

We are obsessive that way, and we talk to obsessive people. I know plenty about DC without actually reading it simply by hearing and seeing stuff on this board while occasionally flipping through a trade in a store that looks interesting.

But more on topic:

Some one brought up atrocious trade collecting.

THAT IS UNACCEPTABLY WRONG.

Fine, you want to put out trades two years after a story is over so if someone who buys it can't get the backlog of stories, and if they do, you won't see any money from it since it's all secondary market stuff?

Fine, we'll just tradewait for the next trade since we have no choice in the matter. I don't go to cons and I don't buy things online, so if my local shop doesn't carry it, I'm SOL on the whole catching up thing, guess I'll just hope to remember that I care about this title the next time I see the next trade.
But wait!

You don't put out trades in any order and don't give any clues as to how I should read your trades so by the time your next trade is out, I will have no idea it's the next in the series since there are so many trades out there today? How will I know?

Well, that's why they created the Other Wiki, or I can just go ask fans online, bit of extra unnecessary work, and I certainly can't do that now, so I guess I'll go home and look it up while hoping that nobody buys it while I'm gone. I'm not going to waste gas to leave and come back, so I guess I'll buy something else with this money...

Of course when I ask the fans online, they will tell me that quite often, not every issue is printed in the trade, and now I have to go track down an issue put out two years ago.

Didn't I decide to tradewait since I figured it would be pretty difficult to find and buy all these individual issues that were printed so long ago?

But wait! I already bought a Marvel trade that has every issue in it and was numbered on the spine so I knew where I was in the story! Marvel puts out trades in a timely fashion, so generally I can keep up and have conversations online with others about the story as it progresses!

That's fun for me!


I guess this explains why, as a tradewaiting type, I've been a Marvel Zombie for the past decade.


You can focus on singles over trades, but that's no excuse to actively do things that are going to discourage people from giving you money.

[zenbullet]

PS: only here to support the Wildstorm and see what's going on and what would be worthwhile to pick up.

In a way the DC trend is working, because instead of tradewaiting, I am buying the individual issues of Stormwatch, Voodoo, and Grifter, but mainly due to the fact that I'm convinced two are going to get cancelled and won't be collected. If not all three...

[Paul Newell]

It drives the DC market, yes, which is why it's dwindling. Marvel's market is made up of far more younger, casual fans, which is why it's not. You can't build a successful publishing business off of aging, 40 year old fanboys.

Marvel's market has been dwindling the same as DC's. It's been an overall trend in comics the last three years.
And if Marvel have no need to "build a successful publishing business off of aging, 40 year old fanboys", why has just about every second issue they've produced the last three years been a "Secret Invasion", "Dark Reign", "Siege", "Heroic Age", "Fear Itself" tie-in? Not to mention the many X-brandings and crossovers?

You can seriously tell me that's not an effort by Marvel to target the hardcore fan?