Sentry vs. Adam Warlock

[Captain Morgan]

Mind explaining why? Let's take our normal crappy nonusable travel speed feat like "Guy flies from one galaxy to another". Let's change it slightly, this guy is carrying a puppy that can survive in space.

From the way you worded it, him carrying something just made the feat a reflex feat? Or what? Explain that.



See you mention that "in comics" if you can move lightspeed you can react at those speeds. Except, "in comics", we hare a variety of instances of characters who travel at high speeds yet don't react to them.

Dude, leave it alone, there's no way arguing it will do any good. Just wait for Sharp to notice and clarify his previous ruling.

[Howard Allan]

The question comes up. Since Sentry is a true dual personality, could Warlock with the Soul Gem rip the void out of sentry while leaving Bob intact?

[GozertheGozarian]

Multiple personalities doesn't mean multiple souls, so I'd think it unlikely.

[Sharpandpointies]

Dude, leave it alone, there's no way arguing it will do any good. Just wait for Sharp to notice and clarify his previous ruling.

Common sense applies, here.

If the Flash is running through a CITY at lightspeed, where the movement of 10-100' feet could bang him into an object without changing trajectories (lightspeed versus 10-100' feet being a ridiculously short reaction time needed), obviously he needs to have the reaction time necessary to handle this.

If the Surfer searches the entire earth for a single person in the space of time it takes Strange to say 'I hope this won't take long-', obviously he has to pause and look in every face or at everyone, at the very least. And in all kinds of building, zipping down hallways, glancing into cars, etc. He has to think and recognize stuff at that speed as well as navigate through these cramped, tight confines.

If Superman is flying from Earth to Alpha Centauri, he doesn't. Space is big. And empty. He sees everything coming a long way off, with no sudden turns necessary.

If the Sentry is flying to the sun and dumping the Void in, that really only requires him to fly directly at the sun and, if he notices a planet coming up, avoid the planet. The odds of him having Mercury suddenly loom in his way are non-existent, and if it did, he'd certainly be able to avoid it without needing lightspeed reaction time.

Common sense.

For the most part, travel stuff isn't indicative of reaction/combat speed unless a case may be made for it (Wally West running at lightspeed through the city, for example, or the Surfer not just covering every inch of the planet but subjecting it to a detailed search at the same time).

[Pike]

Common sense.

For the most part, travel stuff isn't indicative of reaction/combat speed unless a case may be made for it (Wally West running at lightspeed through the city, for example, or the Surfer not just covering every inch of the planet but subjecting it to a detailed search at the same time).

I agree but not trying to be difficult here but what about if they combatants are actually fighting while moving at that speed. Common sense says that they have reactions at those speeds. Can't divorce the two.

[Sharpandpointies]

I agree but not trying to be difficult here but what about if they combatants are actually fighting while moving at that speed. Common sense says that they have reactions at those speeds. Can't divorce the two.

Not really.

Toss me and another guy out of a high altitude airplane. Say we achieve something like 200 mph speeds.

We can still float alongside one another throwing punches that aren't anywhere near 200 mph, because our speeds with respect to one another are identical. Relative motions.

Same here. Let's say the Sentry grabs the Void and heads for the sun at...I don't know, lightspeed.

He's zooming through space, grappling with something he has ahold of. They're both going at the same, relative speed (heck, the Sentry and the Void have identical reaction and combat speed, because they're both the same being, effectively). So sure they can interact, whapping at each other at 'less than light combat speed' while zooming along at lightspeed in a straight line.

It's not like when Wonder Woman intercepted and lassoed Jessie Quick who was already travelling/moving/reacting at Lightspeed.

[Pike]

Not really.

Toss me and another guy out of a high altitude airplane. Say we achieve something like 200 mph speeds. .

Not really. At the speeds in question, light speed, you wouldn't be aware enough to drool much less throw a punch. Let's say we toss you out of aplane at light speed you're not doing much of anything.

Same here. Let's say the Sentry grabs the Void and heads for the sun at...I don't know, lightspeed.

They're there in 8 seconds so they might have time for a few punches but when they get there unless they are aware of their surroundings, and can react, they are going right through the sun. This is lightspeed, not mach speed. Massive difference particularly when the combatants are going there under their own power and can seemingly stop when they choose.

It's not like when Wonder Woman intercepted and lassoed Jessie Quick who was already travelling/moving/reacting at Lightspeed

Actually I don't believe she was but would you consider that a reactiion feat? Would Thor stopping a speeding Pulsar be the same? My problem is the seeming double standard in reaction feats. I believe Wonder Woman grabbed Jesse before she entered the speed force and then just hung on.

[Sharpandpointies]

Not really. At the speeds in question, light speed, you wouldn't be aware enough to drool much less throw a punch. Let's say we toss you out of aplane at light speed you're not doing much of anything.

Assuming I'm capable of surviving the speed, obviously.

They're there in 8 seconds so they might have time for a few punches but when they get there unless they are aware of their surroundings, and can react, they are going right through the sun. This is lightspeed, not mach speed. Massive difference particularly when the combatants are going there under their own power and can seemingly stop when they choose.

If they're getting 'a few punches' in 8 seconds, that's not really a good indication of 'lightspeed combat speed'.

And how the heck do they miss the sun getting bigger? The Sun? Big thing? Fills their entire field of vision from light seconds out?

Actually I don't believe she was but would you consider that a reactiion feat? Would Thor stopping a speeding Pulsar be the same? My problem is the seeming double standard in reaction feats. I believe Wonder Woman grabbed Jesse before she entered the speed force and then just hung on.

Depends on how Thor did it. And if it's consistent with Thor's speed showings and his character..

As for the Wonder Woman feat, it's right there, on panel, that she lassoes Jessie at a time when Jessie and the other girl are zooming along, all in yellow 'we're hitting lightspeed' panels, and had been doing so for a while. So unless Diana happened to be lounging around at the exact place they were going to stop, and just happened to be ready when and if they did stop, yes, that's an interception.

And it's consistent with Diana's character - she's presented as just a wee bit under Clark in combat speed, and a superspeedster in her own right.

[Pike]

Assuming I'm capable of surviving the speed, obviously..

Well no, it's more assuming you can react. Very unlikely at light speed.

If they're getting 'a few punches' in 8 seconds, that's not really a good indication of 'lightspeed combat speed'.

And how the heck do they miss the sun getting bigger? The Sun? Big thing? Fills their entire field of vision from light seconds out?

Not at light speed. We could not react fast enough (normal human) going at light speed to both fight and then miss the sun. we'd have to change our trjectory too quickly to do both.

As for the Wonder Woman feat, it's right there, on panel, that she lassoes Jessie at a time when Jessie and the other girl are zooming along, all in yellow 'we're hitting lightspeed' panels, and had been doing so for a while. So unless Diana happened to be lounging around at the exact place they were going to stop, and just happened to be ready when and if they did stop, yes, that's an interception.

Again, not to be difficult but I believe she gets her before she gets into the speed force. Might be wrong so I'll dig up a scan.

And it's consistent with Diana's character - she's presented as just a wee bit under Clark in combat speed, and a superspeedster in her own right

Not really, she doesn't actually have that many feats. The problem I am having is that you can't have it both ways. Meaning judge one characters feats over another. She doesn't have many near-lightspeed feats. Some decent speedfeats to be sure but next to none at near light speed. They are few and far between.


Meh did not mean for this to become a speed debate. Sorry, it really isn't that relevant to the thread so I'll stop now.

[Sharpandpointies]

Well no, it's more assuming you can react. Very unlikely at light speed.

Okay. I'm fired at lightspeed. Assuming I can survive it, I'm now zipping along at lightspeed beside another guy who is essentially going the exact same speed. We're holding onto each other.

I start hitting him.

This doesn't make me 'lightspeed reflexes'. It means me and another guy are going the same speed, and I'm hitting him.

Not at light speed. We could not react fast enough (normal human) going at light speed to both fight and then miss the sun. we'd have to change our trjectory too quickly to do both.

Pike, I can see the sun from here. It takes light over 8 minutes to reach me.

I'm pretty sure that I could stop a few seconds out from it or so if I was flying directly at it.

The Sentry's reaction time, while not lightspeed by feats, is at least into the dozens of mach. So it's literally thousands of times faster than mine. I don't really see him having a problem slowing down and 'throwing' when the sun fills the entire field of vision in the direction he's going (given the size of the sun, that's still quite far away).

Again, not to be difficult but I believe she gets her before she gets into the speed force. Might be wrong so I'll dig up a scan.

Go for it. :) I'm looking at it right now. They're 'in the yellow' when you see the lasso fall over Jessi's head.

Not really, she doesn't actually have that many feats. The problem I am having is that you can't have it both ways. Meaning judge one characters feats over another. She doesn't have many near-lightspeed feats. Some decent speedfeats to be sure but next to none at near light speed. They are few and far between.

She has feats for blocking lasers, feats for blocking heat vision, feats for lassoing Jessie Quick, feats for taking on Superman and doing half-decently (which normally wouldn't mean much, keeping up with another speedster, but is upheld by her other high-end feats), feats for blocking stuff moving at lightspeed in a 360 degree radius around a person, feats for her casually keeping up with Jessie Quick, feats for her helping the Flash and Superman 'search the entire planet'...

And on top of that, DC flat-out presents her as being close to Superman in speed.

Hence - high-end feats consistent with the character.

Meh did not mean for this to become a speed debate. Sorry, it really isn't that relevant to the thread so I'll stop now.

Fair enough.

[Lochdale]

She has feats for blocking lasers, feats for blocking heat vision, feats for lassoing Jessie Quick, feats for taking on Superman and doing half-decently (which normally wouldn't mean much, keeping up with another speedster, but is upheld by her other high-end feats), feats for blocking stuff moving at lightspeed in a 360 degree radius around a person, feats for her casually keeping up with Jessie Quick, feats for her helping the Flash and Superman 'search the entire planet'...

So Sharp, these are usable speed feats? Blocking heat vision and lasers and the like?

And the entire planet feat is a joke. Check out the scan sometimes. She doesn't even leave the same park. Seriously, it's hysterically stupid.

And what about this scenario. You're hit by someone at lightspeed, can you react then?

[Captain Morgan]

Simply deflecting a single stream of heat vision isn't much of a speed feat. You can't tell if the blocker is reacting to the heat vision itself or just adjusting to the blaster's aim. It's the classic aim dodging vs. bullet timing example, sped up to light speed.

We've seen all of Batman manage to deflect Superman's heat vision in such a situation.

In contrast, there are multiple instances of Diana deflecting rapid fire volleys of heat vision, fired off to the point where there are multiple bolts in the air flying at her simultaneously. Here she has to be reacting to the bolts themselves, not the other party's aim.

Examples:

http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/r...oman162p03.jpg
http://s300.photobucket.com/albums/n...t=scan0014.jpg

She's also deflected entire clouds of projectiles as they rocket in from across the universe.

http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/r...current=11.jpg
http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/r...nt=WW194-2.jpg

She helps Flash evacuate 900 people in moments.

http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/r...t=speedan6.jpg

And I'm sure this isn't going to change anyone's minds, but I thought I would post them anyway.

[Sharpandpointies]

It's pretty obvious that this is heading toward the Thor speed debate. So if you want to fire off a bunch of scans and an argument on the subject to Gordon, the Watcher, and myself, by all means.

Otherwise the leading questions and the going by the letter of the law (when there is no such thing) are getting a little frustrating. Questions were raised, I tried to answer them in good faith.

The mods who have come before me made a decision about Thor's speed...or not, I'm not sure if it's up in the air or what. They've also made a decision at some point about Diana's speed. I'm not going to change either without discussing it with them.

[Pike]

I see your point Sharpandpointies but I also see Lochdale's (surprise, surprise). It seems that certain DC's speedsters feats can't be nit-picked but when it comes to an MU character they are torn apart (just see the Surfer speed debate). Blocking heat vision is blocking heat vision. You do it once you can do it ten times. To suggest otherwise is idiotic. Sorry but it is. Batman blocking it is PIS and nothing more. That's the point Lochdale is trying to make and frankly I think he is very right and it's tiring to see the double standard.

But I did say I see your point so I will drop it like a hot rock and return to it only via PM....which I won't actually do because it's tiring for everyone!

[Pendaran]

Blocking heat vision is blocking heat vision. You do it once you can do it ten times.

You think blocking a single shot of something is the same as blocking a barrage of something? That.. doesn't work.