Should the Ultimate Universe end?

[Crimson]

I was reading this IGN article:
http://uk.comics.ign.com/articles/777/777482p2.html

And while normally, I don't like IGN's opinion pieces because they are the total opposite opinions to mine most of the time so I just don't read them, this one got me thinking.

Is it time the Ultimate Universe ended, or slimmed down it's line up?

Looking at the books both Ultimate X-Men and Fantastic Four are in decline. Those books could easily be removed leaving the talented creative teams on both to work on other books for Marvel.

Who knows if The Ultimates will remain a top seller when Millar and Hitch leave, I'm tempted to say it won't but that's just me speculating.

Even Ultimate Spider-Man is slipping in sales and most people seem to agree the quality has dropped since around about #60 even though it appears to be picking back up.

Is there still a place for these books? Couldn't the talent be used in the Marvel Universe, where the books are doing alot better then they were 5 years ago?

[agrich]

I'm not sure how the lineup could be slimmed down any more, there are basically only three monthly books being published now.

Eventually sales will dictate if certain books or the whole line ends. They're not going to keep publishing Ultimate FF or Ultimate X-Men if the readership dwindles away to nothing.

I don't think the Ultimate Universe should end, however. There's a place for it in the form of stories that can be told there that can't be told in the Marvel Universe. I mean, it's nice having a Spider-man to read about who isn't married, as a for instance.

And if the creative talent you speak of isn't attracting enough readers to the Ultimate titles, I'm not sure why I should be eager to see them brough back to the Marvel Universe. If I'm not interested in reading Mike Carey and Pascual Ferry on UFF, I'm really not going to be that much more interested in reading them on FF. Some might feel differently, but I DO buy books or not buy books based on the creative team. I enjoyed the Millar/Land UFF (even though I gradually got sick of Land), so I bought it. I'm not a big fan of the current creative team, so I dropped it. If UFF was suddenly done by Millar and Jae Lee or something, I'd pick it up again.

[megabyte01]

the article brings up some interesting points. at the time it was concieved, the regular universe was a mess. Uitlmate Marvel allowed authors a chance to tell stories that weren't as dependent on continuity. Marvel has started doing the sensible thing and write off unessecary characters in events that have changed the direction of the universe as a whole. It reminds me of what Wizards of the Coast does for the card game Magic: the Gathering. By coming out with revised editions of the core set of cards every 2-3 years - which include some cards from the expansions but not too many - the game is kept fresh, interesting, and it doesn't have too many overpowered cards. events like house of M and Civil War were had calls to make, but the core universe is better from it.

getting back to the point, maybe Marvel doesn't need the Ultimate universe as much now as when they started the franchise. marvel had done a good deal of work to cut out the comlex backstory that hampers the enjoyment of the casual reader. one strength Ultimate Marvel has is most of its characters are teenagers. 10-15 year olds are going to identify more with the 16 year old peter parker than with the 29.999999 year old peter parker (i swear he doesn't look a day over 30). If the other writers play to this strength in the other books without undoing what makes the characters unique, they can intice people to start reading comics and keep them reading when they get older and their tastes change.

[Mister Mets]

I don't think the Ultimate Universe is in too much danger given the continuing success of Ultimate Spider-Man & Ultimates 2 (and the probable success of Ultimates 3/4.) Some mistakes have been made on Ultimate Fantastic Four & Ultimate X-Men, but some A-list creators can easily turn those around. I think Kirkman should have been replaced after his first nine issue stint failed to impress, and Ultimate Power should have been a nine issue Ultimate Fantastic Four arc.

[stealthwise]

I'd say that it's time to kill it, as the sales are slipping, and very few people seem to care about what happens to the Ultimates once Hitch and Millar are done, Ultimate Spider-Man is a mess, and Ultimate X-Men and Fantastic Four haven't been interesting for quite some time now.

[Sam T.]

I totally agree with this statement.

[Nefarius]

When Ultimate line of titles appeared,i wasn't like it.I saw it as a idea that would overshadow the 616 continuity.But later i start to like it.I hate some ultimate characters(because they are inferior to their original counterparts)but i think it's usefull for young readers to follow a new and fresh continuity.

[KAy]

I strongly disagree with this (admittedly biased) article.

First, the authors TOTALLY missed the point of the UU. This is evident when they say things like "the fact that every time an Ultimate brand issue hits the shelf, it's a strike against the principle of the concept" right after saying "In theory the vast array of books in the standard line are too convoluted for the average reader. The Ultimate Universe is supposed to eliminate that problem". Sorry, nothing wrong with UU there guys. USM is gone beyond 100+ issues, and it's still ONE title, as opposed to numerous Spider-Man titles in the "main" Marvel universe (and don't even get me started about the mini series). That's the great thing about UU -- you want to read about X-Men, you read ONE title instead of dozens. And THAT is the whole point of UU, which has NOTHING to do with the amount of issues within that one title. Is that so hard to understand?

Problems with quality of the ultimate line? Bah, so instead of finding other writers and artists it's better to close the line altogether? This is totally nuts. So DC should've cancelled Swamp Thing instead of giving it to Alan Moore, right?

Or this: "This means you can't possibly build something like Civil War". Well, no sh1t Sherlock, but that's what the main universe is for! A lot of people hate massive scale crossovers because it forces them to buy a lot of titles they wouldn't buy otherwise just to keep up with the story. Is UU avoiding this a bad thing? I don't think so.

Or how about this:"Why would I read about Ultimate Cable when a vast Civil War is being waged?" Yeah, really? So tell me, why would I read about a "civil war" that won't change the status quo, because as we all know, everything will be back to normal eventually? And you know why's that? Because that's "something that has a legacy", as the authors of the article pointed out. Marvel is not going to tarnish the legacy, and it won't do no irrepairable damage to its core cash cows. In the Ultimate Universe, OTOH, almost anything can happen, and that makes it more interesting.

[mattx110]

I strongly disagree with this (admittedly biased) article.

First, the authors TOTALLY missed the point of the UU. This is evident when they say things like "the fact that every time an Ultimate brand issue hits the shelf, it's a strike against the principle of the concept" right after saying "In theory the vast array of books in the standard line are too convoluted for the average reader. The Ultimate Universe is supposed to eliminate that problem". Sorry, nothing wrong with UU there guys. USM is gone beyond 100+ issues, and it's still ONE title, as opposed to numerous Spider-Man titles in the "main" Marvel universe (and don't even get me started about the mini series). That's the great thing about UU -- you want to read about X-Men, you read ONE title instead of dozens. And THAT is the whole point of UU, which has NOTHING to do with the amount of issues within that one title. Is that so hard to understand?

Problems with quality of the ultimate line? Bah, so instead of finding other writers and artists it's better to close the line altogether? This is totally nuts. So DC should've cancelled Swamp Thing instead of giving it to Alan Moore, right?

Or this: "This means you can't possibly build something like Civil War". Well, no sh1t Sherlock, but that's what the main universe is for! A lot of people hate massive scale crossovers because it forces them to buy a lot of titles they wouldn't buy otherwise just to keep up with the story. Is UU avoiding this a bad thing? I don't think so.

Or how about this:"Why would I read about Ultimate Cable when a vast Civil War is being waged?" Yeah, really? So tell me, why would I read about a "civil war" that won't change the status quo, because as we all know, everything will be back to normal eventually? And you know why's that? Because that's "something that has a legacy", as the authors of the article pointed out. Marvel is not going to tarnish the legacy, and it won't do no irrepairable damage to its core cash cows. In the Ultimate Universe, OTOH, almost anything can happen, and that makes it more interesting.

eh, books near cancellation are great grounds for creators developing a reputation. if not enough people are reading UFF, you do a UFF oneshot, with a backup written by an up and coming writer and a new hotshot artist who hasn't had a defining book.
see if new fans come to the oneshot, and then put them on UFF monthly.
the UU is nice and small, and i think if they make a new title, they should do it in Volumes the way ultimates is done. volume 3 book 7 sounds less intense than issue. 31 for some reason.
USM should never change the numbering system though, with the hardcovers and trades done in volumes it feels nice for a flaship type book to be a full run.

and i'm with you. the article takes some logic points that don't quite work for me.
why read daredevil or iron fist, or any DC books while civil war is going on. unless you read the books because you're a comic fan, and don't believe everything has to revolve around an event.

oh wait, that's 80% of fans...

Uxmen and UFF haven't hit me that hard yet, and i don't know why. well, probably because bendis went from one experimental title to writing half the marvel universe, and ultimates gets press every couple months when an issue or preview page comes out.

until bendis and millar and joe Q have a simultaneous "i know how to end the Ultimate universe in the awesomest way" moment, it's worth keeping the titles running.

edit: also, ultimates is a teamup event book every issue. there isn't a need for a civil war, because that's the kind of largescale material that happens in a regular book.

[Citizen V]

Yes,i think the Ultimate Universe should end.Its nothing really new,simply a re-telling of the classic 616 Marvel Universe.As it is only USM is popular,everything else is not so great.

[Omega Alpha]

As it is only USM is popular

What? The Ultimates is the most acclaimed book at Marvel, even with the delays.

[Canemacar]

I tagree that the Ultimate line should end. It lacks the timelessness of the 616 Universe and it's only selling points, a lack of continuity and more realism, have dwindled until they're practically non-existant. Lets face it; the Ultimate line was never going to last as long as the old one.

[Brad Barton]

All 3 Major Ultimate titles have maintained a certain amount of Quality, and I would say are always on par with the best books published monthly by any company, with their major weakness of course being that The Ultimate books don't have a good track record with publishing monthly,....or even bi-monthly, or in Hitch's case bi-yearly. (I kid)

I'd say right now the Ultimate lines main weaknesses are its Mini's. Ultimate Vision, Ultimate Extinction, Ultimate War, Ultimate Power, the whole point of the ultimate universe was to update and improve upon existing stories, the problem is, these minis, in most cases, didn't do that. They may have updated the look and feel of the stories a bit as far as modernization (especially in Ellis' case, I call his Ultimate Books "Ultimate X-Files") But they just don't have the flair, the imagination, the strength of narrative and emotional payoff of the originals. The classics.

here's a few things I think could spruce up the Ultimate Marvel U a bit, breathe a little fresh new life into the line...
-Make an Ultimate Hulk title. It needs to be done, Hulks just too big a character to be the eternal guest star.
-Have a friggin' Ultimates book that ships on time. If Loeb/Mads Ults. 3 ships bi-yearly like Hitch's, I think it'll be a severe blow to the entire line, one Marvel would rather avoid.
-Whoever replaces Bagley on USM, make it last more than 4-6 issues. A creator can't claim to have had a true "run" on a title unless they contributed at least 18-24 issues, depending on quality. All these Superstar creators hopping on titles for 3-6 issues then hopping off is getting a little irritating.

All in all, I'd say Ultimate Marvel is still definitely worth continuing. The main titles are still strong, and depending on key editorial decisons they make in the future, it could really go either way. One thing is for sure, at this point, the "616" Universe is definitely the stronger of the two, but I can remember a time around 2003-2004 when they were just about neck and neck.

Based on sales, Marvel would be lunatics to pull the Ultimate line. The worst Ultimate books sales numbers probably still put most of DC's A-list books' to shame.

[BatKnight89]

I think it should end. I never liked it much, too dull, except for Spidey, but now that Bagley is leaving what's the point. His art is the best and it just had that great style that said ULTIMATE! I remember the first time I saw Ultimate Spidey the look just grabbed me.

I love his regular continuity spidey and the Ultimate is so fluid so cool.

[pauwoo]

The sooner it ends the better, as far as i'm concerned, then people can stop saying 616 to describe the real marvel universe :)